I thought I had the nuts
 

Scrumptrilescent 60 game. Villain is a loose sorta passive postflop guy that I have played with a bit in the 1/2. Here are 2 hands we played earlier on the day of this hand in the other game:

Hand 1: He opens in CO, I 3bet QQ, he calls and donks the 974r flop. I call. He bet/3bet the 5 turn and I call down to see AA.

Hand 2: He opens button, I 3bet As9s in sb and it's HU. Flop 963 2 diamond he calls. Turn K diamond he calls. River blank he calls and has AK to win the pile of dollars in the middle of the table.

So the hand:
EP raises, 473 coldcallers (more like 3-4) including villain, I 3bet AA in sb, the flop comes after everyone calls:

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I bet, a couple calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I bet, he instantly raises, I instantly 3bet, he thinks for what seems like a pretty long time and 4bets which seems really weird. I do what now?

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

unless he's a moron (which it doesnt sound like he is) he has to put you on AA. which means he has that beat. call and CR if the board pairs otherwise C/C river.

missed that he "waited a really long time..." might be a set...but imo this is probably the nuts thinking about calling and waiting for a safe non board pairing river to throw more money into.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

5bet

from his pause it looks like set over set or hes got 25

both contemplating that you have 57 which makes zero sense

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

His thinking is one of three things:


1.) I'm an idiot, is my 52s good?
2.) Is my set hood here?
3.) I have 75s and am Hollywooding.


I'd 5bet and go from there, I don't think it makes a ton of difference either way.

Is this a 4 or 5 bet cap? I know it's HU but people 5bet very seldom in 4bet cap games, I don't know if that's true in 5bet cap games.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

5-betting seems crazy. If he's "sorta passive" how can he have anything but a straight here? Yes, there's a small chance he has a set so you can't fold, but raising any more seems like spew to me.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

"unless he's a moron (which it doesnt sound like he is)"

did you even read the first two hands???

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

it's a 4 bet cap. commerce.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
"unless he's a moron (which it doesnt sound like he is)"

did you even read the first two hands???

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see whats particularly god awful about either.

they are nonstandard lines, yes, but still profitable ones. the only questionable line is the AK, but consider:

1) opponent is playing passively
2) howmany is aware of this

thus no one is calling your AK turn raise there unless you're beat.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

I thought villain played Hand 1 pretty darn well.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

I thought he played it ...different. Good, but different.


Anyways, I'd just call the 4bet.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
"unless he's a moron (which it doesnt sound like he is)"

did you even read the first two hands???

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a moron in a different way than the type who would necessarily cold-call with 57 or 25. I think this is a 5-bet if allowed, and you're usually against a lower set. He's more likely to be giddy about his set than having a straight when all factors discussed are considered.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

Hand 1, BTW, was unorthodox and not that great, because he only got that much value being against exactly TT-KK, but it wasn't AWFUL or anything (though he should obv cap pre). Hand 2 was blah but not exactly wretched aside from not capping pre, are you folding given the odds on the flop? I probably raise the turn too but again, not atrocious.

Also, the "long think" is rarely an act live imo. it's almost always a legitimate decision. Which means he normally doesn't have the nuts. which means you essentially do, and he's almost always drawing to one out.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

He can easily have a straight, but he can also easily have basically any random two pair here. The question is basically whether he is 4betting any of the two pair or sets here. This is why I don't really like to post a lot of hands because there is no way for anyone to know the answer to this unless they have played with this player. Even I have played with him and I don't know the answer so it is sort of pointless.

FWIW I called, the river was a 5 and after I checked he thought forever again at which point I knew I was c/r if he bet but he checked behind with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People at the table (Mike L and then a few random fish that thought they needed to teach me how to play) said I should 5bet and I thought I played it perfect.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

I suppose it's true, and is the problem with posting live hands. Some players could easily have the straight, but you just have to be there to know which. Since he showed up with 63, obviously he could. I still like 5-betting because you get 4-bet given the thinking tell with lots of hands you have obliterated.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

HOWMANY, you play a ton live...wouldn't you agree that most of the time, that long think in LIMIT (not NL) is almost always NOT the nuts, but a genuine decision from your standard fish, or no in Cali games?

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the "long think" is rarely an act live imo. it's almost always a legitimate decision. Which means he normally doesn't have the nuts. which means you essentially do, and he's almost always drawing to one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking excatly, show no mercy, 5 bet or lead a safe river

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
HOWMANY, you play a ton live...wouldn't you agree that most of the time, that long think in LIMIT (not NL) is almost always NOT the nuts, but a genuine decision from your standard fish, or no in Cali games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly it's hard to say because most people don't bother thinking at all and just spontaneously make some -3 level play. The last two times I personally stopped to think were this hand: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post11018095

I was actually the villain and had J7o and then one hand in the 60 a couple days ago where I literally groaned on the river when I was 3bet when I had A6 on 8636A and then thought a bit more and decided I needed to 4bet. The ones before that I had what I knew was the nuts and just wanted to wait a couple seconds. I personally think I spread my real thinking with my fake thinking about evenly although I don't do either very often.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

But you personally are an excellent player. And I agree, most players don't stop to think. but IMO, the ones who do in limit almost ALWAYS are really thinking. I RARELY see a reverse tell in middle limit games, standard ones anyway...and you emphasized that it seemed like he was thinking a long time. that seems to me to be weighing "call or raise, am I ahead or not" not "let me sucker him into thinking my raise isn't that strong by waiting 2 minutes"...

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

If you're going to raise, at this point do it quickly. Super fast 5 bet like "you're gonna get raped". Then ask something like "is it unlimited heads up ?" to the dealer. And if he's still going bonkers, then ya, you're done [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

He just called w/ TPTK on turn HU and is 4-betting u here w/ 2-pair? i think not, unless he really is a retard.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

I like how he played the first hand. And I'd give him a "C" in the second hand.

I'm guessing this player is Kevin; I think he was in the 7 seat the other day when I saw you.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

It's an asian guy that wears his hat sideways. Something like CC or CE or CD or something. When he wins a pot and goes to toke a dealer with a non-$1 chip he says "chopping". He also seems to have a sick addiction to sooted 1-2 gappers like 52s-T7s that he will gladly play for multiple bets when running good.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

Didn't really need to add second comment when you mentioned he was asian.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

How close to you was he? If he was the first caller on the flop, the more likely he is to have a set than a straight. But he's still much more likely to have 7-5s here. If this is the player I think it is, I'd bet out if I filled up on the river, he's liable to check behind with a a straight. If you raise here and don't improve and he has the straight, you're going to lose two more bets than you would have by just calling down (unless you plan to fold on the river unimproved if he 6-bets the turn). If he has a set, you're only going to win one more by just calling here as opposed to raising.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

I got the wrong guy then. But this info. makes him even more likely to have 7-5s or 5-2s here.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

I'd guess that he was the 2nd or 3rd cold caller preflop as he was the 5 seat and I was the 9 I believe.

BTW if that was you and Michael Davis or whoever Mike was trying to get me to stand up to meet last night sorry I didn't get up, I was mad that I hadn't won the whole table yet because they were all so horrible and I couldn't bring myself to move again for a few hours.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

Nope, wasn't me, but even if it had been, no apology necessary. I saw Mike briefly earlier in the day.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

let's start over. i was in the game and hm's opponent played horribly, he was terrible.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

youre way off in left field. youre putting this guy on thinking in ways he's not capable of. the guy was drooling on himself. he might have had a straight but he also could easily have a smaller set or two pair. TOO MANY shouldve 5 bet this all day long and called a 6 bet. end of thread.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's an asian guy that wears his hat sideways. Something like CC or CE or CD or something. When he wins a pot and goes to toke a dealer with a non-$1 chip he says "chopping". He also seems to have a sick addiction to sooted 1-2 gappers like 52s-T7s that he will gladly play for multiple bets when running good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tall super-thin guy who's always laughing?

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

Make a full house and stop losing to this guy.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's an asian guy that wears his hat sideways. Something like CC or CE or CD or something. When he wins a pot and goes to toke a dealer with a non-$1 chip he says "chopping". He also seems to have a sick addiction to sooted 1-2 gappers like 52s-T7s that he will gladly play for multiple bets when running good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tall super-thin guy who's always laughing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is probably him. He wears what looks like a really expensive watch with jeans and a tshirt usually, although one day I spotted him wearing a suit which probably means he just returned from work or something.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's an asian guy that wears his hat sideways. Something like CC or CE or CD or something. When he wins a pot and goes to toke a dealer with a non-$1 chip he says "chopping". He also seems to have a sick addiction to sooted 1-2 gappers like 52s-T7s that he will gladly play for multiple bets when running good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tall super-thin guy who's always laughing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is probably him. He wears what looks like a really expensive watch with jeans and a tshirt usually, although one day I spotted him wearing a suit which probably means he just returned from work or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, if he has a suit it's probably not who I was thinking about. Guy I know was a high limit AC pro who moved to LA last year and plays at Commerce full time, but I doubt he owns a suit. He's under 26.

Re: I thought I had the nuts
 

This guy was a lot older than 26 and most definitely not a professional poker player.