mike l. asked me
 

60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

Re: mike l. asked me
 

what position was the raisor?

If Im reading your question right, my first instinct is he would need to give you one small bet because you will have to check/fold the flop since PFR will be either firing 2 or 3 barrels depending on the strength of his hand and you don't have enough equity holding a random hand to get past the flop.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

actually you might not need to check/fold the flop. Say its like a CO open raisor....you have pretty good equity and if you call 2 bets PFR can only bet the river with a decently strong hand I think. So you are putting in 3sb a lot and 5sb sometimes. If PFR checks the turn I guess we need to bet the river for value with our random hand (unless its like an A/K or something) b/c PFR's check means he has less than 50% equity vs a random hand. PFR will still have to call river though it seems.


Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.659% 59.47% 01.29% 7559088 163323.50 { 33+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 87s, 76s, A4o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 39.341% 38.12% 01.29% 4845101 163323.50 { random }

I guess the question is : how much is your expectation lowered by not looking at your cards? Seems pretty tough to answer...I guess you would have to figure out the optimal strategy for PFR (how often is he betting the turn/river and your equity when u reach the showdown with random hand vs his range) and compare it to your average expectation with a random hand when you CAN see your cards (taken from Poker Tracker data or something).

Re: mike l. asked me
 

funky llama,
I think you misunderstood the question. The second the BB refuses the deal he can look at his cards and play normally. This deal gets offered from both sides a fair amount in california live games. usually it occurs AFTER the BB has looked at his hand and he asks "1 chip back?"

cracks me up every time

Re: mike l. asked me
 

Ok some details for people who aren't aware of the structure, after PFR raises and SB folds there is $220 in the pot including your BB and you have to call $60 more, so you are getting 3.67:1 to call. If you fold, your EV is 0, I feel my EV in this spot with a random hand vs a PFR with let's guess top 30% of his hands is certainly positive (ie: without looking at my hand I would still prefer to call dark than fold dark, this is obvious), so the question is how positive?

Even if I only have 30% equity vs his range, which I'm lowballing from Funky Llama's stove because of playability factors being OOP, I am entitled to $66 of the $220, so I think its about right to fold blind and let him "take the profit" something you hear a lot in LA games as well as "one back".

That said I don't make deals because it encourages further softplaying in the future and I hate to have to remember who thinks I make what deal etc. etc.

-DeathDonkey

Re: mike l. asked me
 

hmm in average any player loses 0,1 - 0,2 BB/hand in the BB. right? So the deal would be fine if villain offers more than we lose in average in the BB/hand?

Re: mike l. asked me
 

raisers position is super important. if its the button i would say you need a refund of less than .1bb.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody did something like this at Commerce when I was in the sb and had folded. Big blind agreed they would split. I reached and took my SB back. They complained and called the floor who sided with me. No chopping.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody did something like this at Commerce when I was in the sb and had folded. Big blind agreed they would split. I reached and took my SB back. They complained and called the floor who sided with me. No chopping.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really nitty. You made your preflop decision, their subsequent chop doesn't affect you, it's just sour grapes to do this.

-DeathDonkey

Re: mike l. asked me
 

I don't think it's sour grapes. Some guys have this agreement, so they are able to enter the pot with greater impunity than other players knowing they can subsequently make a deal with the big blind. I'm as easy-going as they come at the table, and I'll object to this every time.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody did something like this at Commerce when I was in the sb and had folded. Big blind agreed they would split. I reached and took my SB back. They complained and called the floor who sided with me. No chopping.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really nitty. You made your preflop decision, their subsequent chop doesn't affect you, it's just sour grapes to do this.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. Chopping helps facilitate collusion. The blind thief is supposed to get by two players, not one. The sb is much less apt to defend and this is cheating on the part of the other two players. The blind thief can take a stab with a substantially weaker hand if he knows the BB will chop with him.

Additionally, I had to call the floor on another occasion involving the same player. At showdown he calls out a hand he doesn't have to try to get the opponent to muck.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

Ok I don't make deals so I'm not trying to justify anything but this has happened to me a lot and I never thought much of it. If Andy says he objects maybe I'll be a bit more wary. Sorry for attacking emerson.

-DeathDonkey

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I don't make deals so I'm not trying to justify anything but this has happened to me a lot and I never thought much of it. If Andy says he objects maybe I'll be a bit more wary. Sorry for attacking emerson.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem, and I don't consider it an attack, just an opinion.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
raisers position is super important. if its the button i would say you need a refund of less than .1bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

If your average lossrate in BB vs a btn steal is -.1bb, and youve invested .5bb, wouldnt you need .4bb back?

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not at all. Chopping helps facilitate collusion. The blind thief is supposed to get by two players, not one. The sb is much less apt to defend and this is cheating on the part of the other two players. The blind thief can take a stab with a substantially weaker hand if he knows the BB will chop with him.

[/ QUOTE ]


It only matters if they're so pussified that the mental anguish associated with playing out a hand is enough to deter them from making a steal that they otherwise think would be profitable.

But i guess anyone who'd make a deal like this would be that much of a pussy. For people who're indifferent to the action, it wont matter so long as they're getting a fair number of chips back in the deal.



To take it to even more of an extreme, i'd be just as happy to work out a deal where i receive 0.002BB per hand before the cards are even dealt out... every hand.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

This is done ROUTINELY at the Commerce. I don't mind it if I'm the sb for the reasons DeathDonkey has stated. I DO very much mind it, when I'm in one of the blinds and it goes raise, re-raise pre-flop, blinds fold, and then one of them asks to take the profit! It's amazing how often this is attempted in the 1-2 game.

Whatever. You can ask for a "No Chopping" button. The floor will put it in immediately on first request if you have any problem with what others are doing.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is done ROUTINELY at the Commerce. I don't mind it if I'm the sb for the reasons DeathDonkey has stated. I DO very much mind it, when I'm in one of the blinds and it goes raise, re-raise pre-flop, blinds fold, and then one of them asks to take the profit! It's amazing how often this is attempted in the 1-2 game.

Whatever. You can ask for a "No Chopping" button. The floor will put it in immediately on first request if you have any problem with what others are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a large sign a Commerce that says "No Chopping". The only chopping allowed is between the blinds when all others have folded. That's it. All else is illegal. I realize the rule is ignored by many and not enforced by the dealers.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
It only matters if they're so pussified that the mental anguish associated with playing out a hand is enough to deter them from making a steal that they otherwise think would be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is false. If you know that you'll chop with the BB, it can turn an unprofitable open-raise into a profitable one. If SB doesn't know that button and BB have a deal going, the first time it gets folded to button in this spot it will cause SB to play incorrectly, thus giving up some EV to button and BB. Very slight, and not horrible collusion, yet still collusion. Its basically like having a rule in the game that BB and button are aware of, and SB isn't.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It only matters if they're so pussified that the mental anguish associated with playing out a hand is enough to deter them from making a steal that they otherwise think would be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is false. If you know that you'll chop with the BB, it can turn an unprofitable open-raise into a profitable one. If SB doesn't know that button and BB have a deal going, the first time it gets folded to button in this spot it will cause SB to play incorrectly, thus giving up some EV to button and BB. Very slight, and not horrible collusion, yet still collusion. Its basically like having a rule in the game that BB and button are aware of, and SB isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yepper, and it is not just the button. I've seen this going on from various table positions.

I think some of the better players believe that fish are simply there to loose their money anyway so it is not unethical to help them along. I see lots of things going on that place anyone who is not part of the "in crowd" at a major disadvantage.

Re: mike l. asked me
 

Is the raiser better than you? Like you can pokerstove equity but you can't stove ability.

I feel that is an overriding factor and the effect that these kinds of displays have on your image...

JT