Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

*sidenote before the hand*

So I'm just starting to post here more and getting used to the way you guys do things here. When I post HH's I give all information, including players' names while I notice you guys often edit the names to instead read MP1, CO, Bu, hero, villain etc. Is there a reason its done this way?

Ok, on to the hand...


Full Tilt Poker Game #2900637234: $1K Monday (21236015), Table 11 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:34:32 ET - 2007/07/09
Seat 1: sprediton (3,525)
Seat 2: wqt6470 (2,650)
Seat 3: GetPWN3D (1,880)
Seat 4: RayMcGraw (3,185)
Seat 5: Believer8219 (3,265)
Seat 6: voff voff voff (4,295)
Seat 7: winnaseat (3,455)
Seat 8: mrcall912 (2,470)
Seat 9: vegan213 (2,275)
GetPWN3D posts the small blind of 20
RayMcGraw posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GetPWN3D [Kc 4c]
Believer8219 folds
voff voff voff has 15 seconds left to act
voff voff voff calls 40
winnaseat folds
mrcall912 calls 40
vegan213 calls 40
sprediton folds
wqt6470 calls 40
GetPWN3D calls 20
RayMcGraw checks
*** FLOP *** [4d 9c 2s]
GetPWN3D has 15 seconds left to act
GetPWN3D bets 100
RayMcGraw folds
voff voff voff calls 100
mrcall912 folds
vegan213 calls 100
wqt6470 folds

Pre-flop- VVV open limps UTG+1, I've had alot of experience with him and found this play to be odd for him. This starts the mandatory limp parade, I complete from the SB and we see a flop 6 handed.

Flop- I make my fairly standard stab lead for less then half the pot with middle pair on a very dry uncoordinated board. The plan is to go into shutdown mode if I face any heat on flop, and shutdown turn if called and I don't improve my hand or pick up back door flushdraw.

*** TURN *** [4d 9c 2s] [4s]
GetPWN3D has 15 seconds left to act
GetPWN3D checks
voff voff voff has 15 seconds left to act
voff voff voff bets 200
vegan213 raises to 560
GetPWN3D has 15 seconds left to act
GetPWN3D has requested TIME

This looks like the perfect turn card for me. Normally I would continue betting here but I know both VVV and Vegan and I'm pretty sure checking the turn is the best way for me to gain chips. I've known both of these players to be aggressive and I'm confident one of them will bet.

VVV obliges me, leading for a smallish bet like my flop stab, and I'm not too concerned with him. Pre-flop I felt he may have limped a big pair, but I think he raises flop w/ OP, so now I think he could have somekind of suited 9, or a mid pair like 55-88, but 22 is definite possibility w/ flop FC and smallish turn lead trying to build some kind of pot.

So now it gets tricky. I feel this table was pretty weak by the standard of the normal FTP 1k tables, and the 2 players I'm involved in the hand with are definitely 2 of the tougher players at the table, and neither of them have cleary identified their hands.

Now Vegan puts in a smallish raise, which could be him sniffing out VVV's bet as a stab or a real hand. Giving him credit for a real hand, I think his range is 9s8s/9s7s/9sTs giving him a flush draw to go with top pair, A4s, 22, or a small suited 4 (34s-74s) which he decided to overlimp in position. It's 560 to me, and I have 1,740 left, enough to cripple Vegan while VVV has us both covered.

Options-

1. Flat the 560

2. I got trips w/ 2nd kicker, NH WP GG ME bc I'm all-in

3. Fold

Seems like #2 would be standard, #1 seems pretty bad, and I'm not sold that #3 is not an option or whether it would be worse then flatting here OOP. Given the stacks I don't have any chips to try and gain more info.

Thoughts?

BeL0W

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

This is really long and I'll get to the rest of it later, but the flop lead sucks unless you realize you are bluffing and are willing to do whatever it takes to get 55-88 to fold.

And if you are going to do that, leading half-pot is not the way to do it.

I'm really struggling for a time when donking a limped pot from SB for less than half-pot is EVER good.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

I don't care for the flop lead but once you do I think you should lead the turn. It sure looks like one of them has 99 or 22 but I don't know much about these players. I don't think you can call so it's between push and fold, not sure if I can get away from this one though it's very read dependent.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

#2

Board: 4d 9c 2s 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.000% 50.00% 00.00% 154 0.00 { Kc4c }
Hand 1: 50.000% 50.00% 00.00% 154 0.00 { 22, As4s, Ts9s, 9s8s, 9s7s, 5s3s, 4s3s }

I realize the pokerstove calcs are for one player but if that's his range then I think you have to put it in. I'm not sure how much fold equity you have but it looks as if there is roughly $1200 in the pot. Knowing a little about your style I doubt a push will get anyone to fold which given your likelihood of being ahead is another reason to get it in on this turn and get back to a decent stack size.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

I dont think you can ever fold here, and flat calling seems really bad and tells everyone you have a monster already and unless they improve on the river you get no more action.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

below-- Tough spot. I don't hate the flop lead like the above posts, as I think it is quite good as a part of your game as a whole. I don't think folding is an option, and pushing is certainly better than folding. If he has a worse hand, a call is clearly worse because I really doubt he will bluff the river with anything, and he calls w/ any trips if u bomb the turn I assume. If he has a big draw, quite often he will call your shove, so I think you would rather shove vs that hand as well.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

i'd shove quick and not think about it, but think about it with 34 for sure

edit: this would also be much tougher if effective was 3000-4500

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

below people post hand with Hero, UTG, etc b/c they put it into a converter to make it easier to read, not to hide peoples names. As played i think i shove and also i dont hate the flop lead as much as everyone else...

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

I understand why most wouldn't like the flop lead, but it's a play I use often from the blinds in limped pots and it's pretty effective. I'd also lead a big hand here like 2 pair or a set, which makes the play even more effective.

I agree with everything you said in your above post Ansky, except for "folding is not an option". I'm not entirely sold that it isn't an option which is what lead me to posting this.

This definitely would be an extremely more difficult spot if the effective stacks were 3k-4k.

BeL0W

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

hey below, what do they think of your image and more importantly do they think you can donk the flop with absolute air... Can your hand be something like 35ss that you donked, picked up a mega draw and are now going foro the check raise. This also isn't too believable due to the fact that bet/3bet would prob even be better with that hand.

Correcet me if i'm wrong but if you shove, aren't we near the bottom of our range here? are you felting 45? and do your opps know any of these answers?

At first I was thinking shove obv, but i like it less and less the more I think about it, although its probably necessary due to the small stacks.

Long story short, despite all misgivings I still think its a shove.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

I think folding is definetely a viable option.. There's no way that vegan is bluffing here, so we have to define his hand. I think that 45s, 46s, 34s are all very possible, and those are the hands you have beat, but I don't think you beat much else. Is he really raising w/ a 9 here? I don't think so. 22 is certainly possible as well and that's what I'm putting him on here. A4s is another hand that has you beat as well.. I don't know, maybe I'm just a nit but I have as much trouble shoving here as I do folding.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

Below,
I will look at the hand a little later when I have a chance but I just wanted to say, WELCOME!!! I look forward to you contributing in the HS forum.
~Justin

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

I like a push, I think a push is pretty clear given the stack sizes and the hands your opponents can have in their range that you're ahead of and they will still call the shove with. I also agree that this hand becomes far more difficult with more chips and only then would I consider folding.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

Why would Vegan raise here with 99 or 22 with Below still behind left to act?

Lord knows Below c/r the turn enough to make calling really profitable. Why not let draws come along?

Also, I assumed Below had a 3k stack when he posted the hand. He only has 1800 which makes this a much easier push because the range of hands that calls 1800 is a lot wider than the range that calls 3k.

And Vegan is a bit crazy sometimes too.

Arrrr eeennnn.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

I think you definitely have to either push or fold here, I don't think overcalling is an option. I don't know a lot about vegan, but is he really overcalling the flop very often with a 4 in his hand there? As you said, the board is very dry and while you have an aggressive reputation I'm not sure you're getting overcalled here a lot on the flop with a dry 4. I certainly think he does it sometimes, but I think the flop action makes it less likely than vegan is holding something like 45, 46, etc. 35s and even 56s are in his range pretty easily though as is Axs and especially A9s. After that, I really think most of the time you're looking at A4 suited, 99, 22, or 42 suited here. This is a great slowplay board as well so keep that in mind. I also think you can't completely discount the random donk factor of someone playing A9o or playing TT really weirdly here too. VVV's range is pretty wide here and i'm really not concerned about him.

I actually think it's pretty close between pushing and folding here. While I understand your reasoning for not doing so, this hand plays a lot easier when you bet the turn.

Gun to head in the heat of the moment i probably push, but thinking about it more I'm really talking myself into thinking this is a fold.

-Rizen

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

Below,

As you, I would push, because you get called by almost every worse 4 possible.

As most other people with a regular image, I just fold.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

fwiw folding is fine imo. u see 222 here so much its sick. but also, its super hard to fault anyone for sticking it in here, cuz he can have those combo hands. but i think its v unlikely he overcalls with a hand like 45s or whatever. i think u can get away from the hand on the turn here.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw folding is fine imo. u see 222 here so much its sick. but also, its super hard to fault anyone for sticking it in here, cuz he can have those combo hands. its v unlikely he overcalls with a hand like 45s or whatever. i think u can get away from the hand on the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

completely agree...i think the turn raiser has 222 insanely often.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

[ QUOTE ]
hey below, what do they think of your image and more importantly do they think you can donk the flop with absolute air... Can your hand be something like 35ss that you donked, picked up a mega draw and are now going foro the check raise. This also isn't too believable due to the fact that bet/3bet would prob even be better with that hand.

Correcet me if i'm wrong but if you shove, aren't we near the bottom of our range here? are you felting 45? and do your opps know any of these answers?

At first I was thinking shove obv, but i like it less and less the more I think about it, although its probably necessary due to the small stacks.

Long story short, despite all misgivings I still think its a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer your question, both of my opponents are familiar with me and know I'm nuttso even in a 1k. VVV and I have gone to war many times on FTP as we both like to be table captain 95% of the time we, Vegan and I have not played nearly as much together but are familiar enough.

BeL0W

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

btw this is scott, as in sitting on the other side of david williams with you at 1k rebuy... I'm comfortable saying push it in

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a reason its done this way?



[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's real pretty.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $20/$40
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $3265
UTG+1: $4295
MP1: $3455
MP2: $2470
MP3: $2275
CO: $3525
Button: $2650
Hero: $1880
BB: $3185

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($240, 6 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $100</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($540, 3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $200</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP3 raises to $560</font>.
Hero?

I liek the flop lead but why so little?

I think this is a shove. You check because you expect someone to bet. Someone bets. Someone else makes a stack committing raise. Someone else think's he's probably got the best hand. Someone else's range is a little behind yours. Calling is bad. People call you light so shove. Folding might be an option but with so many fours and draws in MP3's range, I don't think you can pursue it.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

Hmmm... If it was me, I'd fold, cause I'd be up against a made house or A4 a lot more than I get a call from worse hands. To you guys who advocate a fold, do you really consider looking at this hand from BeL0W's perspective, having his reputation? Or is the added range of worse calling hands he gets just for being who he is, not enough to make up for all the times he's behind?

So, in the clothes of a more loose-aggro player, I'd shove this.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

i'm struggling to come up with a hand for vegan that plays this way. i'm coming up with 99, 22 and hands like 45, 46, A4 etc. i suppose that extended range makes a push the right play, since you have a king kicker with your 4, disregarding the possibilities of 35ss or T9ss type hands.

Re: Tough spot early in FTP 1k...
 

Pre-flop and flop action is so gay that he gets here with all kinds of spade/gutshot/pair combos. Whether he raises them in position I don't know but in the face of thye check/weak stab turn action, I think they have to go into the range, if underweighted (I think he's boated here a lot FWIW but I also think we're too shallow to fold and, after all, as far as he's concerned, this is two lags splashing around in a weird way)