6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

9 handed, Saturday night, average of 4 to a flop, button is 35ish ethnic Chinese that speaks Chinese, if that makes any difference to any of you, who has been fairly quiet in his 30 minutes at the table so far.

I limp Ad5d UTG+2, button raises, Bb and I call,
F: T52d
BB check, I bet, button call, BB folds
T: 7
I bet, button calls
R: 6 (no possible flushes)
I bet…

Thoughts?

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

fold pf pls

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

i dont mind the flop bet against passive players. Check the river.

also fold PF. it sounds like table conditions are poor for this hand from early position.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

What are you getting value off on river? A5 is a trash hand btw.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Thanks for the comments. I guess time to tighten up PF.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Especially if there's a flush draw out there, I'd check and call this river. The flop and turn bet are fine.

I also don't mind the limp nearly as much as others do, particularly if the table has been passive (not much preflop raising).

-McGee

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

I always hate disagreeing with Babar, as he's the Archbishop of Valuetown =], but at an LP table I love the idea of limping with a suited A. If the table were tougher I'd have to consider folding this PF. What do the numbers have to say about this situation, I wonder?

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always hate disagreeing with Babar, as he's the Archbishop of Valuetown =], but at an LP table I love the idea of limping with a suited A. If the table were tougher I'd have to consider folding this PF. What do the numbers have to say about this situation, I wonder?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote:
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9 handed average of 4 to a flop,


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this is not a loose passive table.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

True enough. But it's gonna take a lot more than one raise PF to get me to fold a suited A.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always hate disagreeing with Babar, as he's the Archbishop of Valuetown =], but at an LP table I love the idea of limping with a suited A. If the table were tougher I'd have to consider folding this PF. What do the numbers have to say about this situation, I wonder?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote:
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9 handed average of 4 to a flop,


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this is not a loose passive table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding the limp, this is really the key point. Typically, I go ahead and play these types of hands because live on a weekend night we usually see 5-6 to a flop. That nite the table had more tight passive type players. Maybe 1 PF raise per orbit. With only 4 to a flop, it seems the decision to limp will require a bit more consideration.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Again a good point. But I have this strange fascination with holding nut flush draws, betting them, and raking in huge pots when they hit. =]

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

A5s is a trash hand? You mean EP at a tight table I hope

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

count, i'm fine limping this sort of hand in lp after 3 or 4 other limpers but limping first in out of position is asking for trouble, especially for all the times someone comes in behind us with a better ace and then an ace flops.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Am I okay under those circumstances if I play very carefully after the flop? Usually I'm pretty good about realizing that I played the A5s to hit the nut flush, and I play slowly after the flop when I whiff on my flush but find an A.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Better play on the river I think is to check hoping to elicit a bluff from AJ+. If he bets his 88 or 99 there then you lose the same amount as if you bet so no big deal. Your PF limp is a little loose for the game conditions you describe, IMO.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the limp, this is really the key point. Typically, I go ahead and play these types of hands because live on a weekend night we usually see 5-6 to a flop. That nite the table had more tight passive type players. Maybe 1 PF raise per orbit. With only 4 to a flop, it seems the decision to limp will require a bit more consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the table is so passive that 10% or fewer of hands are getting raised PF, I'm playing A5s from any position, whether the table is averaging 3 people to a flop or 8. Play it for a small pot in the former case and a gigantic pot in the latter case.

Your primary concern with this hand is having to play it out of position against a bigger ace. The good news is, at very passive tables you'll make far more those times you hit your flush (or bully passive opponents out of the pot with the worst hand) than you'll lose those times you call down with dominated one-pair hands (or get bluffed off the best hand by aggressive opponents).

I think I'd even be willing to risk a raise from EP-MP with A5s to get the pot heads-up or 3-handed ... then again, they don't call me King Spew for nothin'. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mook

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Folding this preflop in any game is good.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A5s is a trash hand? You mean EP at a tight table I hope

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean its a trash hand and especially so EP at full table.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding this preflop in any game is good.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but this is categorically untrue. If you are among the best post-flop players at a passive table and you don't routinely enter unraised pots with A5s (and hands like K8s and J9s as well), you are leaving a ton of money on the table. Period.

To the OP: Limp-call PF is good. Flop donk ... given the read you've provided, I like it, assuming you plan to fold if raised and not waste another $30 calling down. Please check the river ... can you think of a hand that's calling a river bet that you beat?

Mook

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

mook, not sure what games or limits you play but unless there are routinely several limpers i don't want to limp utg or utg2 with a crappy suited ace. folding is not leaving tons of money on the table. folding jack ten suited after six limpers would be a bad play, yes, and limping ace three suited or ace six suited after several limpers is fine also. but limping an easily dominated hand like that first in is not a good play. i would much prefer to come in for a raise, but usually at live tables that won't fold a lot of guys out (unless we're talking a much higher limit). i would say it's something like
fold>>>>>>>>raise>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>limp

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Maliant, let's hear when you play this hand if ever?

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold>>>>>>>>raise>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>limp

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is totally wrong. If limping is -ev, it is only slightly so, assuming that the OP is capable postflop and that the other players are not. I'm not saying that I necessarily advocate limping as opposed to folding pf, but I think that raising is a total spew and limping is, at worst, only a minor error. If the other players are indeed capable postflop, then ok, limping is almost certainly wrong, but what 6-12 game has 5+ capable postflop players?

Personally, I usually limp here preflop even with the table conditions listed because I will a) win the most when I am ahead and b) lose the least when I'm behind postflop. I don't know whether or not that is a very slight spew, but even the tight 6-12 or 10-20 players I play with are pretty clueless postflop and won't accurately punish me when I'm actually dominated.

As for the actual hand in question, I am a little uncertain what the flop was. Was it T52 with 2 diamonds? Or T52 with one diamond? Either way, I probably play it the same as the OP except that I check the river and see what the button does. If he bets, I use reads to determine whether I call or fold.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

b movie fan, either it's a loose table with several limpers and not great postflop play, in which case i said i don't mind limping up front, or it's a tighter table in which a limp up front is more likely to get punished (perhaps this is my online experience but i have a fair amount of live experience too), and a raise is iffy but could clear out a lot of people, but a fold is probably best. you can't have it both ways [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i was only going on the description op gave, of 4ish on average to a flop, and in the hand he posted a guy isoraised his limp pf. so it would seem like a tighter-ish table for live play, no?

obviously none of us are there with a total feel for that game like op is but all we can do is offer our hopefully applicable insights.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

and yea i agree with you totally when you say that if guys aren't adequately punishing you by isoing or positional play pre or postflop in your live game, then that kind of hand becomes much more playable and probably only slightly -ev. i am used to tight aggro games online. so we basically agree on more than we disagree.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Right, and I'm used to the fishy, loosey-goosey live games. I realize that it may seem like 4 to the flop is a rocky game, but it's HIGHLY likely that the OP's game was one of TPs, not of TAGs or competent players.

That's why in those games -- even "tight" live games -- I think a raise is a total spew. You are only folding out a very small handful of hands that beat you, plus all the hands you beat. Limping isn't so bad assuming that the game is indeed merely a little tight with still bad players. Folding is obviously also just fine.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

I see what you guys are saying. I play live 3/6 and many times I will raise UTG with a semi-solid hand like a suited A early in a session just to see how tight the table is. But mostly I'm limping the crap outta those suited As. I play pretty tight, so if I have a leak PF, it's definitely my fascination with flopping the nut flush draw. Over the long haul I figure Axs gives me the green light to see a flop.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

Yes, this table was tighter than we normally see live on a weekend night, but it was more weak tight than TAG. If I recall there was only on player who seemed any good and that was a young woman waiting for a 15/30 seat. In one of my replies above, I tried to make that point that normally I knee jerk limp AXs because there are an average of 6 callers with no more than one raise PF per orbit. In this case the knee jerk was wrong as the table was tighter than normal and probably should have engendered more thought on my part.

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
and yea i agree with you totally when you say that if guys aren't adequately punishing you by isoing or positional play pre or postflop in your live game, then that kind of hand becomes much more playable and probably only slightly -ev. i am used to tight aggro games online. so we basically agree on more than we disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I live an hour from AC so I basically play live exclusively ... generally 4/8, 6/12, the kinds of games where people occasionally have a clue about preflop play but for the most part act like they have the Lee Jones book open in front of them on the table. When you're talking 5-6 to a flop, 10% of pots getting raised, hours going by without a street getting capped, A5s isn't "slightly -EV". It's solidly profitable most of the time. Maybe slightly -EV first or second in from EP, but that's worst-case. Now if you're talking 3/6 online vs. a bunch of 22/15 TAGs, then yeah, A5s is going in the muck unless I'm on the button or CO, but the next time I see this at a live 6/12 game will be the first. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I kinda hate that we've found ourselves down this rathole when I'd much rather be debating the relative merits of donking vs. CR'ing this T52 flop ...

Mook

Re: 6/12 live-betting into a PF raiser with less than top pair?
 

i think i'd prefer a donk