WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

Our villain is 37/0/0.6

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

I took a WA/WB line here. Either he has the Ace or we are
ahead and want to encourage him. Is that correct thinking?

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

Our villain is certainly very passive so his lead doesn't look good at all. So passive you might already be behind two pair or better. I might raise the flop, if he calls, ck through the turn to get to SD and you can fold to a bet on the river I think, unless you improve.

That's one avenue at least. Once my raise is called on the flop, I'd say I'm beaten and I'm not putting another bet in UI.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

For me is standard wa/wb calldown but this donk bet is suspected with so pasive player he can hold weak A or middle pocet i think.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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Our villain is certainly very passive so his lead doesn't look good at all. So passive you might already be behind two pair or better. I might raise the flop, if he calls, ck through the turn to get to SD and you can fold to a bet on the river I think, unless you improve.

That's one avenue at least. Once my raise is called on the flop, I'd say I'm beaten and I'm not putting another bet in UI.

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Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

I think since villain didn't raise preflop we are ahead here a lot. I would raise the flop and see what he does with it. This is the level I play at most and I see lots of people leading out here that missed the flop.

If he reraises or donk/leads the turn we are probably behind.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

This is not WA/WB! Even if he has an Ace, you have ~6.5 outs on the flop as long as it is not AK/AQ.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

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That is probably the case. BD draws are typically valued at 1.5 outs.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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This is not WA/WB! Even if he has an Ace, you have ~6.5 outs on the flop as long as it is not AK/AQ.

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oh u right ...
so best here is raise passive player?
If he would be agressive player wouldent be better just call down?

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

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That is probably the case. BD draws are typically valued at 1.5 outs.

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Just to be nit, I did the calculation. If it's the BD that adds 1.5 outs then that's wrong because the BD is singlesided. We first need one of four cards and then another on of four cards on the river. Not one of eight and yet another one of eight. That draw comes in 1.4% of the time so half an out.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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Is it just me who is stupid but I can't see more than 5 outs on that flop. Is it our backdoor straight that makes it 6.5 outs, to go. If it's that many then it's a raise.

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That is probably the case. BD draws are typically valued at 1.5 outs.

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Mustn't we discount based on the fact that we can't get the upper end of the BDSD? It is a gapless BDSD, which would normally yield 1.5 outs on the flop, but that is normally for a TJQ where we could get either the KA or 89 to complete, am I right?

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I think since villain didn't raise preflop we are ahead here a lot.

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Bona, he has a 0 PFR... OP - how many hands are these stats compiled from? Either way, while I don't disagree that we could be ahead in the hand, his PF play cannot tell us much about his hand.

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I might raise the flop, if he calls, ck through the turn to get to SD and you can fold to a bet on the river I think, unless you improve.

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Ultimately, I agree with this. You could call down as well if you've seen a few of his holdings (he'll bet down w/ MPWK), but this way you save 1.5BB and folding is a viable option considering the pot isn't huge or anything.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Our villain is certainly very passive so his lead doesn't look good at all. So passive you might already be behind two pair or better. I might raise the flop, if he calls, ck through the turn to get to SD and you can fold to a bet on the river I think, unless you improve.

That's one avenue at least. Once my raise is called on the flop, I'd say I'm beaten and I'm not putting another bet in UI.

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Is it a raise for information?

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

Both a raise for information AND for a free card. Also (very unlikely) he may always give up the hand. You shouldn't raise very often in small limits to get information because it can become costly.
What I mean is, not just for information ALONE. Here we have a decent hand, a chance at a free card play, and a small chance a raise may get him to fold (too miniscule if you ask me, but still possible). These are good enough reasons for me to raise here.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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Our villain is certainly very passive so his lead doesn't look good at all. So passive you might already be behind two pair or better. I might raise the flop, if he calls, ck through the turn to get to SD and you can fold to a bet on the river I think, unless you improve.

That's one avenue at least. Once my raise is called on the flop, I'd say I'm beaten and I'm not putting another bet in UI.

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Is it a raise for information?

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The vets typically hate that idea, so in this case we are raising to save ourselves more money that if we just called down I guess. If our villain just calls or 3 bets, we can stop putting money in now.

Although that might get crapped on because a passive will stop betting for lots of reasons. They're quick to shut down unless they've got a big hand. I wouldn't want to call a river bet too often after checking through the turn though after the flop raise.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

They will resurrect the ghost of Ed Miller to keep noobs like me in line [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but here a raise for information is a more valid way of thinking about it. We have second pair. If he continues after a raise, then we are dead if he's passive. Is it not toppairs where things get difficult with raises for information?

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

Not WA/WB. You have too many outs if behind, and the chances that you're ahead on the flop are almost zero, assuming:

1) your stat-read on this guy is over more than about 75 hands; and
B) you haven't actually SEEN him donkbet an ace high flop without TP or better.

So, the question becomes, do you have enough to PLAY the flop, not whether you're raising or calling. And, you don't. You need better than 7 outs to make the call getting 6:1, and you're not even close (you have to discount your two-pair/trips outs because, for this guy to donkbet you're likely already behind to aces-up or a set).

And, fwiw, to anybody who says "raise because (insert some random reason here)", that's dumb. Against this guy, all your raise is going to do is drive him underground but it will never win you the hand, and it only saves you half a bet to showdown. If you're compelled to show it down for some reason, just calldown, but there's no shame in just letting it go on the flop.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

wow ... some passive idiot bets into you on that board and you want to call down in a tiny little pot ...

even if he's donking this hand with a Queen or a straight draw that doesn't mean he's not doing it with an ace the majority of the time ... and in such a small pot you're not getting the odds to go to showdown (which is less than 2:1 ... after rake)

you'll need a pretty solid read that you can call down ... and you don't have it

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

So all in all you guys are saying a raise here is crazy and we should fold?

I guess that's pretty clear. Lol. I guess I never really thought of folding (LEEEEAAK!!) [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

If you are only going to post stats with no reads, then it's even more important that you show us how many hands that is over. 0.0 preflop raise over 20 hands means something entirely different than 0.0 over 300 hands.

Absent any reads, I probably drop it on the turn if you have a big sample size on Villain. Postflop aggro of 0.6 don't typically fire twice without at least top pair.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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Not WA/WB. You have too many outs if behind, and the chances that you're ahead on the flop are almost zero, assuming:

1) your stat-read on this guy is over more than about 75 hands; and
B) you haven't actually SEEN him donkbet an ace high flop without TP or better.

So, the question becomes, do you have enough to PLAY the flop, not whether you're raising or calling. And, you don't. You need better than 7 outs to make the call getting 6:1, and you're not even close (you have to discount your two-pair/trips outs because, for this guy to donkbet you're likely already behind to aces-up or a set).

And, fwiw, to anybody who says "raise because (insert some random reason here)", that's dumb. Against this guy, all your raise is going to do is drive him underground but it will never win you the hand, and it only saves you half a bet to showdown. If you're compelled to show it down for some reason, just calldown, but there's no shame in just letting it go on the flop.

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Ty for explaining it to me. I won't ever say the words: "raise for information" ever again [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You are right with an AG below 0.7 there is usually an toppair or worse here.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

Raising for other solid reasons and getting information as you do is different than raising just to get information.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

The read is for about 50 hands. Would that change things to a play?

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

I just get nitpicky when people use words like never, ever, always. There are some situations where it could be close between raising and calling and information you get with it is helpful so it pushes your decision towards a raise. On the other end, if your hand has little going for it raising for information just to define if you're beat or not is not worth it.

The (loose) analogy I'll use is like PF hand evaluation. 67o is connected. The idea of making straights is attractive, but alone it's rarely profitable. 67s has that connectivity but it's also suited. Now we have more going for it. Raising just for information is like limping with 67o in bad spots. Raising for other solid reasons that may also give information is like limping in position with many callers and 67s.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

it's a nice hand. certainly a raise anywhere would be terrible. Certainly he has a worse hand frequently enough to get to showdown.

Re: WA/WB with second pair good kicker?
 

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it's a nice hand. certainly a raise anywhere would be terrible. Certainly he has a worse hand frequently enough to get to showdown.

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Buck! Where've you been?

"Certainly"? 1 time in 3? Pfah.