Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

Saturday night, 9 handed,~4 to every flop, a tad more aggressive than typical for a saturday nite. EP has been fairly non-descript, playing few hands and going to showdown rarely. BB is a 65+yo hispanic gentleman who has done nothing outlandish.

EP limp, I call with Ac9c in MP, 2 others call, BB calls.
F: A6c5
BB bets, EP calls, I raise, 2 fold, BB raises, EP calls, I call.
T: 8c
BB bets, EP calls, I raise...

Watcha think?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

i would raise preflop.

i dont particularly like the turn raise. given there was no PFR, it is likely that the BB has at least two pair (given the flop 3 bet), and perhaps a set. unless he's very weak tight, he's going to 3 bet you with the set and maybe Ax (two pair), knocking out the EP player and making it more expensive for you to draw.

what were you trying to accomplish with this raise? looks like you're just looking to throw money in on a gamble.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

to add, this turn raise play is better when you feel the opposition is weak and you have fold equity. here, the BB appears strong, meaning you have no fold equity and are just charging yourself to draw.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

you hold ace clubs then it flops again?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

I just call the turn, you dont really beat any other Aces. I'd rather just call and try to spike my flush or GS.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

On the flop the only club was the 6. The A was another suit.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

My rationale was to raise because:
1. I was hoping this would get me to showdown without further bets going in if I didn't improve. If I would call down a river bet, I figured I might get to show down with the same # of bets put in by raising.
2. On these live tables, it is common that AQ and even AK might not raise preflop in one of the blinds.
3. I figured I had a reasonable number of outs, and if I hit them I might get called on the river.
Do these arguments make any sense?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just call the turn, you dont really beat any other Aces. I'd rather just call and try to spike my flush or GS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realized this was likely, but not guaranteed and thought the raise might freeze up the BB on the river.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

I like your free look try for showdwon. I think if the BB had only called your flop raise initailly you could have tried this better on the turn. At first I thought your turn raise was okay until read back & saw that the BB had 3 bet the flop. After that I think I might be more inclined to call the turn. If another Ace comes off it probably won't help you with that flop action, so looks like your drawing to the nut flush with the Ace as a slight backup at this point.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

From the Poker Art of War, based on the Art of War by Sun Tzu:

"When your enemy is weak, raise. When your enemy is strong, fold (or call and sneak up from behind :-) )

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Saturday night, 9 handed,~4 to every flop, a tad more aggressive than typical for a saturday nite. EP has been fairly non-descript, playing few hands and going to showdown rarely. BB is a 65+yo hispanic gentleman who has done nothing outlandish.

EP limp, I call with Ac9c in MP, 2 others call, BB calls.
F: A6c5
BB bets, EP calls, I raise, 2 fold, BB raises, EP calls, I call.
T: 8c
BB bets, EP calls, I raise...

Watcha think?

[/ QUOTE ]

whoa Mista C! dat turn raise was correctomundo...

let's see, all you had was top pair, a draw to the nut flush and a gut shot to a straight (although just one that uses only 1 of you hole cards and is not the nut straight--still, you straight is on the high end of the straight) lotsa outs plus you may be the top hand right now...good betting the turn

let count the outs...9 for the flush, 3 more for the straight (7c already counted), ding one because it isn't to top straight, but add 1 for maybe being top hand right now with AA, and 1 more for if you nine pairs...i come up with 13...13 out of 46 cards help you...your bet odds are 13 helps versus 23 no helps...i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Saturday night, 9 handed,~4 to every flop, a tad more aggressive than typical for a saturday nite. EP has been fairly non-descript, playing few hands and going to showdown rarely. BB is a 65+yo hispanic gentleman who has done nothing outlandish.

EP limp, I call with Ac9c in MP, 2 others call, BB calls.
F: A6c5
BB bets, EP calls, I raise, 2 fold, BB raises, EP calls, I call.
T: 8c
BB bets, EP calls, I raise...

Watcha think?

[/ QUOTE ]

whoa Mista C! dat turn raise was correctomundo...

let's see, all you had was top pair, a draw to the nut flush and a gut shot to a straight (although just one that uses only 1 of you hole cards and is not the nut straight) lotsa outs plus you may be the top hand right now...good betting the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

what on earth makes you think A9 is ahead after a passive BB 3 bets the flop?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

"what on earth makes you think A9 is ahead after a passive BB 3 bets the flop?"

his 2 Aces and okay kicker...please recall i said "may be ahead" and i figured that was worth 1 out (not 2) in the overall scheme of things...but the real strength of the hand is with the flush and straight draw IMHO...strength from possibly being ahead plus that from pairing an okay kicker or getting another A is contributory but not central to my decision...

btw, the flippyness my previous answer was not directed at you, rather i was having sharing a joke/playing along/having fun with MrCunningham, whose avatar is Tom Bosley, the actor who played Howard Cunningham on Happy Days...sorry if you took it personal... but my opinion, though its contrary to yours, is firm

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

I'd like your turn raise better if your 7 and 9 outs were a little cleaner. It's tough to read EP for a smaller flush draw, from how you described him. Maybe he's got 87? If a nine comes, your turn raise might only make you those two extra bets because the 9 might induce the BB to check the river and then you can't raise it. And if he bets when a nine comes there's a strong chance your beat by a set. So it seems your aggro-raising your flush draw at a player who has played back at you once already and another that has at least a solid draw himself. If you could read both the others for a pair of aces, your play is really strong, but there are only so many aces in the deck.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]

*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

presuming there are still 2 villains in the hand i cap...the board is not paired so there is no full house out there yet

i believe betting strong draws aggressively helps disguise the time one has strong made hands...

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

presuming there are still 2 villains in the hand i cap...the board is not paired so there is no full house out there yet

i believe betting strong draws aggressively helps disguise the time one has strong made hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, quite a spew....is this the slag style elindauer was talking about? i cant see myself ever doing this and i'm glad i dont.

if everyone here thinks capping here with only 7-8 clean outs is the right play, well then i guess i have to relearn poker.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

presuming there are still 2 villains in the hand i cap...the board is not paired so there is no full house out there yet

i believe betting strong draws aggressively helps disguise the time one has strong made hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, quite a spew....is this the slag style elindauer was talking about? i cant see myself ever doing this and i'm glad i dont.

if everyone here thinks capping here with only 7-8 clean outs is the right play, well then i guess i have to relearn poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

my new friend & debate adversary, please play your way if that what you are comfortable with, and thanks for the discourse...i believe that you are a winning player

i still you have more outs than just 7 or 8...if you are up against trips, you have 8 from the flush (as only the 5c pairs the board, the Ac you have in your hand) plus a 7 gives you a straight to beat a full house...10 there

if you are up against a made straight, 97s, 9 clubs give beat that, and one of the 2 sevens left would tie that..give yourself 1 out for the split pot...so again you have at least 10 outs

a better A? all flush & straight draws plus the 9 draws are live

potentially, the 9 clubs, the 3 Aces & 3 9's & 3 more 7's give 18 ways to improve; to make my decision i reduce the count down to 13 to get a good idea of what is my action should be on the turn.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

excellent points GAP23. i guess this becomes a pot odds discussion. assuming (a big assumption) that the EP player would call if the BB 3 bet, how many outs would be need to have to cap profitably? 18 is surely enough...is 15? 13? i'm forgetting my math here....

btw i had (maybe) a similar situation come up a few weeks ago. I had A7s, in a 7 way capped pot preflop. the flop gave me two to my suit, and everyone was in for 2 bets. the turn blanked, and there was a bet to my left. 6 people stayed in and I just called, and i thought this was a mistake (I should have CR'd). it turned out the bettor on my left had flopped a set and would have likely 3 bet if i CR'd the turn.

my point is, at what point do you pump your draw at the risk of having someone 3 bet and shut out the field? wouldnt you need some more people in this pot on the turn b4 attempting this play?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

Strictly speaking, with two opponents you need 16+ outs to make the bet +ev. You don't have sixteen outs here. Of course, there are other factors that might make a turn raise the right play.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

Raise pre-flop, not sure what you are beating on turn but was best card for you, you actually can win now call and hope to get lucky.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

I'm happy that this post is getting a bit of discussion, that's why I posted it. The subject line refers to Ray Zee's ( I think it was him) concept that poker players go through stages including needing to learn to be aggressive, then learning when it is appropriate to be aggressive. Currently I think I am somewhere in that transition trying to be aggressive without being to aggressive, so I am delighted to see the discussion.

My additional thoughts on this hand were that the BB, being the big blind, had a largish range that included something like A7+, but not AA, JJ+, or two pair with or without the A. He did not seem the type to be betting draws himself.

In addition, I believe that my image was of a relatively aggressive player that might sometimes bluff. I had been raising more preflop and on the flop than anyone else at the table, and had previously shown down a winning A3o that I had raised on the flop immediately after a PF raiser.

Given all this I was hoping that the turn raise would let me see the showdown cheaply and disguise my hand in case it improved on the river.

I'll give it some more time, then post the action on the river.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

Those suggesting a preflop raise from MP with one limper, why? What do you think the optimal number of players is for A9s? This is live, so you commonly see cold callers, does that make a difference in your decision to raise?

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

Get out blind trash.

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

The problem here is gap23 calculated odds as 13 outs, 23 misses. That's 36 cards, while the deck has 46. 33 to 13 against makes it much more clear that we don't have odds to cap. If BB is even slightly passive, he's not 3-betting without at LEAST 2pr on the flop; I think 13 outs is a bit on the high side, as 9's are rarely winning cards for us.

The turn raise is more likely to get 3-bet than achieve a free showdown. Are you that suspicious that BB doesn't beat one pair to need to show your hand down? Call turn, fold river UI.

-Curtis

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem here is gap23 calculated odds as 13 outs, 23 misses. That's 36 cards, while the deck has 46. 33 to 13 against makes it much more clear that we don't have odds to cap. If BB is even slightly passive, he's not 3-betting without at LEAST 2pr on the flop; I think 13 outs is a bit on the high side, as 9's are rarely winning cards for us.

The turn raise is more likely to get 3-bet than achieve a free showdown. Are you that suspicious that BB doesn't beat one pair to need to show your hand down? Call turn, fold river UI.

-Curtis

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]oops, nice catch, so we need 3 calls, 2 on turn, one on river...oh, well, sometimes my best use is as a good bad example

Re: Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?
 

This doesn't look like a hand where we want to buy a free showdown. I just call the turn, fold a blank on the river and raise a club (obv).