BB garbage flops big draw
 

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

River: (11.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO ?, SB ?.

I think I played this hand okay except for the turn. Checking and then calling two bets cold seems weak, but I couldn't see leading the turn into a large field without a made hand, and the odds were there to call two bets back even assuming the straight outs were no good, so I'm not sure how else to play it. Then too, maybe I should have discounted for the possibility that someone had the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

against a field of 5 I don't like the flop bet without the nut draw ... especially on such a co-ordinated board

TURN is terrible ...

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

c/r flop and bet turn.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop and bet turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

who are you c/r'ing?

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
against a field of 5 I don't like the flop bet without the nut draw ... especially on such a co-ordinated board

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 2nd nut flush draw AND OESD.... does that not equate to enough equity to bet here?
[ QUOTE ]

TURN is terrible ...

[/ QUOTE ]

What is terrible? The check or the calling of 2 bets?

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a field of 5 I don't like the flop bet without the nut draw ... especially on such a co-ordinated board

[/ QUOTE ]

He has 2nd nut flush draw AND OESD.... does that not equate to enough equity to bet here?
[ QUOTE ]

TURN is terrible ...

[/ QUOTE ]

What is terrible? The check or the calling of 2 bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

1/
IMO 2nd nut flush draw is pretty weak when it's only one card (I've never put too much faith in it)
lol - i didn't really notice the oesd [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
don't know if that's enough to swing my vote to a bet ... knock off 1 or 2 opponents and it's an easy bet but on a board that connected I'd much rather see how the action develops behind me

2/
that he did bet the flop I don't know that I like the check ... and i really don't like calling two cold

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

re: turn no bet, with maybe 13 outs or so (2nd nut flush &amp; 1 card OESD ) you maybe ought to have raised, as you have 13 wins out of 46 cards in the pack, you would need about 2.5 calls for +ev on the turn bet standalone, and you had three villains, could expect one to fold and if you made you hand on the river, you could get one caller at least--so you could get your bets...looks like some overlay

but look what happened, you checked and they bet...so don't ask how, ask how many...seriously, were the villains aggressive bettors?

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop and bet turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

who are you c/r'ing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who bets, if they don't bet sweet we save a BB.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop and bet turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

who are you c/r'ing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who bets, if they don't bet sweet we save a BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

well for one, we are not sure anyone is betting here, but I guess we can assume that someone will much of the time.

The bolded part confuses me, well not really, but your missing the point sort of. If the flop checks through, yes, we save a SB, BUT we lose out on much more... a good portion of all the villians bets that never make it into the pot.

In limit, you cannot make up lost bets like one can in NL.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

In a situation like this, I bet the flop, I bet the turn. If they raise I call the turn. If they don't I bet the river.

That draw is a monster almost like the kind I dream about and drool onto my keyboard when I actually see them. (At the casino I freak everybody out.) I'll slow down when they start doing the betting for me.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

so we lose out on bets when we are behind? Fine w/ me.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
so we lose out on bets when we are behind? Fine w/ me.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are not behind. We have 9 outs to the 2nd nut flush and 6 additional outs to straights. These son't count their full value (because the Ac might be out, or someone might beat/split us even if we make), but I'm still counting us for about 9 outs. That is a 35% chance to win by the river. With a 5-way pot, the average equity is 20% so we win $0.15 on every dollar that goes in.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

I don't mind risking seeing a cheap flop trying to c/r is all im saying.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

We almost certainly are behind. Don't go calling things they're not. Just because we have a very strong drawing hand doesn't mean we're truely ahead. Having equity and having the currently topped rank hand are not always the same thing.

Technically it's only 8 outs to the second nut flush, one of those outs gives us the nut flush. Unless of course you are considering that straight flush out there a flush. (Then it's 8 to third, 1 to second).

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

The way I look at the turn is this......If you would call a bet on this turn, which you would, then I think you should go ahead and lead it out. You may be able to fold King-X and buy yourself some outs should you spike a King on the river.

Even if you are behind on the turn and everyone calls, then I think you still have sufficient equity with all of those outs to show a profit.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop and bet turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

who are you c/r'ing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who bets, if they don't bet sweet we save a BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are giving up huge profit by worrying about saving a BB on this flop. You have over 50% equity on the flop and it is 5 handed. That's 30% overlay if everyone calls, which at this limt they most likely will. Even if 2 of them fold, you are getting over 17% overlay!! Rarely will you encounter a situation this profitable in limit hold em.

You cannot pass up pure profit like this. You are picking the wrong place to worry about saving a bet.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

If I were in this situation, I would probably bet the flop, check the turn and bet the river (or c/r the river if expecting CO bets).

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

Don't see how much more profitable a move for this flop will be for us than c/r'ing.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

I lead this flop basically 100% of the time. You want money going into the pot here. Only reason I can think of to check is if UTG/MP is super aggressive and you think it's likely you will be able to checkraise the field.

I don't see any reason to bet the turn. You are not going to get all three opponents to fold here. Even if you knew that they would all call you wouldn't because you will have on average around 25% equity here.

Interesting that a couple people decided to wake up now. It's certainly possible that hero is drawing dead here but I really don't see being able to fold. I wish we had a read on villians.

I have never been too comfortable with this river situation. I'm thinking bet/call. I can live with check/call. I don't like bet/fold without a solid read.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

I think its rare this draw heavy flop is getting checked-thru... and when PFR in LP bets flop I can see someone else c/r'ing giving us good opportunity to C/3-bet.

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see any reason to bet the turn. You are not going to get all three opponents to fold here. Even if you knew that they would all call you wouldn't because you will have on average around 25% equity here.

[/ QUOTE ]

At turn with about 14 outs we have 2.3:1 so at 3 way pot if all those 3 players call then we make profit and it will be equity bet, isnt it?

Re: BB garbage flops big draw
 

Yes it is, except you are assuming all are nut draws.