PS16- Terrible river card.
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

MP1 (t1495)
MP2 (t1220)
CO (t1895)
Button (t3535)
SB (t2400)
Hero (t1405)
UTG (t1550)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t100, Button calls t100, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t400) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t400) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, CO folds, Button calls t300, SB folds.

River: (t1000) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t600</font>, Hero ?

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

i bet 250-300 on the flop to find where im at. i fold river straight and flush draws have been completed, what a sucky card to pop off [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] im upset by it lol

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

i call. i can't believe button wouldn't bet a flush draw with his stack on the flop. I think button will show up with QJ or JT a lot of the time.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

I think this hand is complicated by the river improving my hand to the point that he basically needs to have the straight or flush to beat me.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

You really need to bet this flop.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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You really need to bet this flop.

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Out of the blinds? My kicker is almost invalid against anyone limping with a K, so leading didn't seem right. I might have check-raised if the button had bet the flop though.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

I'm fine with checking the flop.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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i fold river straight and flush draws have been completed

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What straight draws? You think he was limping AQ on button here, calling 300 with just a gutshot and 1 over on turn despite 2 flush draws? I mean, its possible, but i pay off that straight draw.

I also think you should probably have bet flop. Like you said, kicker is irrelevant so if you get raised at least you know where you're at now. Checking is fine too, its a good place to mix up your play but i prefer betting with so many people to follow.

As played, I think you call river. If you fold you have 1100 left, not terrible, but certainly not fun. The only hands that beat you here that he'd play in this manner are a flush and MAYYYYBE KJ. I pay off flush with such a high chance he woulda bet the flop and so many hands you can beat after showing weakness by making a flop check, turn bet, river check.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

Checking this flop is fine.
Checking this river is bad. Bet/fold the river.
As played call river and hope he has clubs.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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Checking this river is bad. Bet/fold the river.


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Why is checking bad?
You bet, he raises, now what? How much to bet, 300 again minimum i assume, leaving you 800 behind on a fold.

You bet, he folds. Youve gained nothing.

You check, you induce a bluff when he missed or even a value bet from a likely worse two pair.

You check, he bets and has a hand that beats yours- depending on bet size, you may have lost slightly more or the same as if youd bet and he raised.

I dont like a bet into on the river, i think hero is likely ahead here and villian has worse two pair or missed flush often enough to make call profitable.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

you bet the river to control the size of the pot. since you bet the turn he only raises hands that beat you here.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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you bet the river to control the size of the pot. since you bet the turn he only raises hands that beat you here.

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what?

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

I don't think checking the flop is terrible. I don't think checking the river is terrible, but you have to call this here.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

kyro, you bet the river the amount YOU want. If we are commited to check calling we could be facing an all in or a pot sized bet which would be bad. Here we can size the bet ourselves as to the appropriate value for our hand and what we are willing to give up should we be raised.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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you bet the river to control the size of the pot. since you bet the turn he only raises hands that beat you here.

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Betting the river only gets you value in ONE way: if he has a hand he'd call with but wouldnt bet himself.

It loses value:
when he would have bluffed
when you are raised

You make more when he attempts a bluff that you pick off than when you bet and he calls with somethin he wouldnt bet. Factor that in with the fact that you have to fold at a -300 or -400 loss from your river bet when he raises and you have an easy check/call or check/fold. In this instance, i like check/call.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

Im advocating puting out a blocker bet here that keeps him from running a huge bluff for a large amount of chips that we cannot call. I think the blocker bet saves us a tough decision should he get ballsy, and saves us money on the check/call.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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kyro, you bet the river the amount YOU want. If we are commited to check calling we could be facing an all in or a pot sized bet which would be bad. Here we can size the bet ourselves as to the appropriate value for our hand and what we are willing to give up should we be raised.

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Oh you mean a blocking bet.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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Im advocating puting out a blocker bet here that keeps him from running a huge bluff for a large amount of chips that we cannot call. I think the blocker bet saves us a tough decision should he get ballsy, and saves us money on the check/call.

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Blocker bet could work, but it also might end up costing us the much needed ~300 chips (1/4 our stack.) OP can decide the chance of success with such a bet and how comfortable he is playing with 800-900 chips here should it fail. PERSONALLY, i prefer to check/call, giving myself a chance to get a playable stack and i think he checks behind you often enough based on marginal hands he wouldnt call much on the river with and a missed draw.

Also, big river bet doesnt even have to be a bluff or monster. Could often enough be a lower two pair.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

I think the reason pudge said to bet river was to get value from worse, and villain almost never raises a worse hand. I obviously agree with pudge, and I play flop and turn the same as OP.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

Sippin summed it up well
Unknowns don't vbet worse since most unknowns can't vbet thin.
Unknowns will check back so many made hands since they have showdown value. So if you are checking you are doing it solely to induce a bluff. Clubs or weak made hands are the only bluffs people can have since people don't bluff weak made hands that often you are checking to induce a bet from specifically a club.
I just looked at stacks and I don't think you can bet/fold, but I also don't think that river is that big a scare card. Since a lot of Ahxh hands bet the flop or raise preflop and it is impossible for him to have the Kh,Jh,Th. I would probably shove this river really quickly and hope he calls with something dumb. Also with stacks I like the flop check a lot more since it sets up for a pretty easy check shove.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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Also with stacks I like the flop check a lot more since it sets up for a pretty easy check shove.

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Youre lovin the check shoves arent ya [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (referencing AK post)

I can see the value in betting as well, though it occassionally means getting raised for my tournament life where I hate to call but hate to fold. As a general rule, i dont like making bets that leave me in a place where I hate both of my only options. But you are right, you do get some call downs from marginal hands.

Does OP have a result?

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

i would put him on j10 here.

really like the check shove idea, pudge.
i would ve played it the same as op but bet the river . still alot to learn i guess [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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I don't think checking the flop is terrible. I don't think checking the river is terrible, but you have to call this here.


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Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

Results: I called. Villain had Ah 7h for the nuts.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

While I don't think checking is bad I still like betting something on this flop.. even smallish like 225-275. They will have PPs missed Ax's and plenty of other things. KJ will probably raise you so except for KQ which might also raise you should be fine. It'll get you chips out of the flush draws also.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

what a bad call he made on turn , pot 400- hero bet 300 , put note calls with draws regardless of odss

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

You can't really say this a bad call, given the play button might expect any ace on the river gives him the best hand. His position means he can check behind if an ace hits and can get extra value when his flush hits. He only needs to gain an extra ~300 chips on average when his flush hits to make his call correct. Although not betting the flop with such a strong draw and a big stack is pretty horrible.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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what a bad call he made on turn , pot 400- hero bet 300 , put note calls with draws regardless of odss

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looooool. putting that note on anyone would be a humungous waste of time.

Re: PS16- Terrible river card.
 

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what a bad call he made on turn , pot 400- hero bet 300 , put note calls with draws regardless of odss

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looooool. putting that note on anyone would be a humungous waste of time.

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Also I think the turn could be the best street by him.