Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

So the action at the Wynn is crazy this week and limit hold'em is dying. There were just two tables of 15/30 and one of 30/60 while there were several tables of omaha variations and every table in the room was going.

I was sitting in the 30 and an interesting floor decision came up.
The action goes as follows:

MP raises preflop, BTN 3 bets, SB folds, BB 4 bets and before anyone one notices/says something the flop is dealt without MP and and BTN calling the BB's 3 bet.

Flop comes out and BB bets, MP calls, BTN raises and BB calls.....and here is when someone finally points out that the pot isn't right and that MP and BTN hadn't called the preflop 4 bet.

Floor is called over...what should they do?

Thanks,
Bill

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

Since they have all voluntarily put money in on the flop I would think that they have to pay it no matter what...

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

One other important piece of information is that the betting is capped at 5 bets per street, so the 4 bet preflop was not the cap and MP or BTN could have 5 bet had they been aware that BB made it 4 to go.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

MP and Button owe a bet to make pre-flop pot right.
Since there has been significant action on the flop, the flop stays.
No more Patrón for the players.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

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Since they have all voluntarily put money in on the flop I would think that they have to pay it no matter what...

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And they can't retroactively cap preflop because they didn't protect their action.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

Dealer gets a KITN.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

just like a botched/premature turn card. The flop is picked up, preflop betting action completed. New Flop dealt(no burn), betting on the flop.

The old flop reshuffled back into the deck after the reshuffle the burn and turn complete as normal. Bet,burn, river bet, award winner. THEN KICK DEALER IN NUTS.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

MrFizzbin is right. Since they still have a decision on putting money in, the flop is picked up and shuffled in. Betting is completed, then flop. Whee.

Nick

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

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Quote:
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Since they have all voluntarily put money in on the flop I would think that they have to pay it no matter what...


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And they can't retroactively cap preflop because they didn't protect their action.

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QFT

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

I don't believe you can pick up the flop as there has been significant action. The 2 players who never got their bets in should have dead hands. They failed to protect their hands by stopping the action sooner.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

I was a bit confused. I would have thought what Mrfizzbin suggested to be correct, and still do.

What happened was that the floor initially suggested MP and BTN each owe another small bet from what they missed preflop. BTN was a bit angry about this insisting that it can't be right because he had no opportunity to 5 bet preflop if he wanted and that it couldn't be replayed now since there had been action on the flop.
After the very small outcry the floor conceded to having BB take back 1 small bet which he agreed to, probably being happy about it as he folded the turn.

Learn something new every day.

Thanks all,
Bill

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

Hmm. I just reread the OP, and didnt see the part about action after the flop. IMHO, the two who didnt call pre now have dead hands.

Nick

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

The players who havent acted hold part of the resposibility to stop the action when the dealer misses it( who gets at least a verbal warning in this case.)
Those hands should be dead.
Consider it a form of protecting your hand... if you dont stop the action if you can, and try to take advantage of a situation, the hand is dead.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

I hate Chief's and Ellen's answers... no the hands are not dead because they didn't notice a raise and neither did the dealer. The guy who put the raise in would be in angle-city if you allowed that; a player can just silently wait for the flop and a few bets and then suddenly proclaim "your hands are all dead--my pot because you failed to call my raise pre-flop". Nope.

I'm ok with having the player who didn't get called extract his raise, or having the two players who hadn't called correct their action. Since the players were all amenable to "take back the uncalled raise", that's good. I think I would tend toward requiring the guys who failed to call put the last bets in, though, if there were no consensus.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

LOL minbet.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

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LOL minbet.

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You drug this post up from months ago just to say that?

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

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LOL minbet.

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You drug this post up from months ago just to say that?

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and he didn't even bother to notice that it was a LIMIT game in the OP. so, no "min"-bet.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

1 of 2 things should happen, either the players who didn't call the last bet pre-flop call and the board stays as is with the current action, or board is removed players must then call the 4th bet and then deck is reshuffled and new flop. With this much action it seems that making the 2 players just put in the extra bet would be the easiest solution.

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

I would have to rule that because significant action has occurred on the flop, long after the mistake was made, the flop will stand. Given the point where the action was stopped, the players who were light should pay up, after which the action should continue.

Al

Re: Wynn Floor Decision: Weird Spot
 

Wow, I'm glad that most of you aren't floormen!

I like the floor's solution, especially since all involved felt satisfied with it.