Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

First rotation, no reads. Check turn?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Villian (SB): $622.25
BB: $235.85
UTG: $259.80
CO: $195.60
Hero (BTN): $200.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.00</font>, <font color="red">Villian raises to $28.00</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $21.00

Flop: ($58) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 6http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Villian bets $48.00</font>, Hero calls $48.00

Turn: ($154) Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
Villian checks, <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $124.00</font>, Villian calls $124.00

River: ($402) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $402.00 ($2 Rake)

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

Value-bluff?

Turn is definitely a check...and I probably fold a blank river. You really beat nothing.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

i like folding pre w/o reads.

as played i like checking the turn.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

Calling pre-flop is fine.

Check turn for pot control.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

This hand is a good example of why folding preflop is okay.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

Note: I'm a 50NL regular.

I would definitely check turn. Pre-flop I would think folding here would be fine. It's your first orbit and you know nothing about the players, their 3betting ranges, and how they play post-flop. And he knows nothing about you so if he's good he's probably not 3betting light.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

I fold preflop absent any reads, calling is okay too though.

I definitely check behind turn for pot control. If he calls your all in, you're behind or splitting.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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Value-bluff?

Turn is definitely a check...and I probably fold a blank river. You really beat nothing.

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Except QQ, KK, Ax, etc, you mean, right?

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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Check turn for pot control.

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It's not really pot control, only one bet left. Its mostly cause we should have trouble getting value from worse.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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Value-bluff?

Turn is definitely a check...and I probably fold a blank river. You really beat nothing.

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Except QQ, KK, Ax, etc, you mean, right?

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And are any of those betting the river?

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

I think there is some really bad advice in this thread.

a) given how aggressive the games are, folding here on the button is certainly not standard.

b) if you are folding the turn or the river in this hand, then, yeah, CLEARLY you should [censored] fold preflop because you can't play only AQQ flops FFS.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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Value-bluff?

Turn is definitely a check...and I probably fold a blank river. You really beat nothing.

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Except QQ, KK, Ax, etc, you mean, right?

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And are any of those betting the river?

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What's your point? Tons of players will call the turn with all of them.

I was referring to "You beat nothing" comment, which, frankly, is just [censored] absurd. Dunno what games you play in but most 200nl players don't 3-bet just AK and AA.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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a) given how aggressive the games are, folding here on the button is certainly not standard.

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Agreed. PF seems super standard.

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b) if you are folding the turn or the river in this hand, then, yeah, CLEARLY you should [censored] fold preflop because you can't play only AQQ flops FFS.

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So you're really stacking off on this board against an unknown every time?

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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I was referring to "You beat nothing" comment, which, frankly, is just [censored] absurd. Dunno what games you play in but most 200nl players don't 3-bet just AK and AA.

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My "you beat nothing" comment was referring to if/when villain bets the river after hero checks the turn.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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a) given how aggressive the games are, folding here on the button is certainly not standard.

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Agreed. PF seems super standard.

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b) if you are folding the turn or the river in this hand, then, yeah, CLEARLY you should [censored] fold preflop because you can't play only AQQ flops FFS.

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So you're really stacking off on this board against an unknown every time?

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The way it went down, yeah. If calling pre-flop seem "super-standard" to you (folding is actually OK, imho, but certainly not mandatory as some here have suggested), then NOT stacking off here is really really really bad.

In other words, there is no way in hell you can make money calling preflop if you don't actually make a ton of money when you flop an ace. Paying 10bbs preflop to win a small pot postflop is really terrible poker.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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What's your point? Tons of players will call the turn with all of them.

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Are you nuts? Even the biggest droolers sometimes get away from QQ/KK after getting called on an A-J-x flop. Most 200NL players aren't great, but they aren't [censored] retarded.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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The way it went down, yeah. If calling pre-flop seem "super-standard" to you (folding is actually OK, imho, but certainly not mandatory as some here have suggested), then NOT stacking off here is really really really bad.

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Yeah it's "super-standard" for ME. I never said folding was terrible. I don't think I even mentioned PF.

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In other words, there is no way in hell you can make money calling preflop if you don't actually make a ton of money when you flop an ace. Paying 10bbs preflop to win a small pot postflop is really terrible poker.

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Well no [censored]...but this is a [censored] awful board for our hand and if you can't see why, I give up.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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Calling pre-flop is fine.

Check turn for pot control.

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ORLY???

You do realize that this is a 3-bet pot here right???? Pot control is pretty meaningless here, since we only have about a PSB left.....

Maybe you need to reread your copy of NLHTAP hmmmmmm.....

Hand is uber standard and played ok by hero

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

As I was sliding the 'bet' bar over to the right after he checked, I was thinking "If he calls this I'm beat for sure." I then moved the mouse to the 'check' button, then I thought "what was the point of calling preflop with this hand?" Finally, I said [censored] it and bet. Of course SB snapcalled with JJ...

Back to the 100NL for awhile..Thank you for your input/help.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

Bilbo -

I agree that if you want to fold this hand, you should just fold preflop. I do believe that folding preflop isn't that bad - villain is a total unknown and it's the 1st orbit. Even if he has a worse hand, you're generally going to win a smallish/medium pot or get stacked if you end up all in.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

I dont think the turn AI is standard at all.



But yeah, just to clarify, turn check isn't for pot control. It's for deception (right?).

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bilbo -

I agree that if you want to fold this hand, you should just fold preflop. I do believe that folding preflop isn't that bad - villain is a total unknown and it's the 1st orbit. Even if he has a worse hand, you're generally going to win a smallish/medium pot or get stacked if you end up all in.

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I also agree that folding is a perfectly fine play, but saying that we have to stack off every time we flop an A is just soooo wrong.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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But yeah, just to clarify, turn check isn't for pot control. It's for deception (right?).

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Our hand is pretty face up IMO.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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But yeah, just to clarify, turn check isn't for pot control. It's for deception (right?).

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Our hand is pretty face up IMO.

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So are you implying you never get paid off by a worse hand, even if you check the turn?

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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Bilbo -

I agree that if you want to fold this hand, you should just fold preflop. I do believe that folding preflop isn't that bad - villain is a total unknown and it's the 1st orbit. Even if he has a worse hand, you're generally going to win a smallish/medium pot or get stacked if you end up all in.

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I also agree that folding is a perfectly fine play, but saying that we have to stack off every time we flop an A is just soooo wrong.

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In a 3-bet pot with only 100BB's behind, it's going to be pretty damn hard to get away unless the board is something disgusting like AJKT on the turn.....

Think about it in a standard 1/2 game

MP opens for 7 and is RR by the button to 24

MP calls, so now our pot with the blinds is 51 with 170 and some change behind...we flop an A we are betting this pretty much always, which commits roughly 1/2 or stack, which means monies are going in on the turn, or the villain folds.....

Anything else and you are playin really bad pokah(of course everything is relative, and if you have a decent read on a player, you can get away from certain hands. But against a general unknown/fish you get the money in with a decent A in a 3-bet pot)

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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In a 3-bet pot with only 100BB's behind, it's going to be pretty damn hard to get away unless the board is something disgusting like AJKT on the turn.....

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You realize we'd have the nuts there right? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

And I agree we have to be stacking off on *most* A/Q high flops, but this just isn't one of them IMO. There are like 3494545 combinations of 2pair/sets that have us crushed..and KK/QQ just isn't paying off often enough to make this turn shove profitable.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

I think that being able to get away from AQ/AK on these boards was one of the big adjustments that I made when moving from NL100 to NL200.

In NL100, you see enough stubborn KKs (or idiot bluffs) to make pushing profitable. But NL200 has enough thinking players that it's rare to get it in with top pair here and still be good.

I'd probably fold PF, and definitely check behind

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

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What's your point? Tons of players will call the turn with all of them.

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Are you nuts? Even the biggest droolers sometimes get away from QQ/KK after getting called on an A-J-x flop. Most 200NL players aren't great, but they aren't [censored] retarded.

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This is just stupid.

By your logic you should be floating every RR pot with an A and pushing the turn if they check to you.

After all, only RETARDED people call here with KK, right?

Lol.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

bilbo im not sure if anyone else has pointed this out but AQ kinda sucks here, obv call flop and turn is a check, but stacking off is not a must against an unknown (although i probably still will because im a cs [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). I'm not saying fold all A high boards but AJT? That's the worst board with an A on it for you

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that being able to get away from AQ/AK on these boards was one of the big adjustments that I made when moving from NL100 to NL200.

In NL100, you see enough stubborn KKs (or idiot bluffs) to make pushing profitable. But NL200 has enough thinking players that it's rare to get it in with top pair here and still be good.

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Couldn't agree more. A year ago shoving might have been +EV...but it just seems like you rarely get called w/ worse in these types of spots anymore.

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

nh

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

i kinda disagree with with bilbo-san here, just my 2 cents. Saying that its stupid NOT to stack off here is a bit much I reckon. Sure people are 3betting like crazy these days and villans range can be very wide but why push the turn when there is really no hand he will call with that you beat. if you push he will fold KK,QQ. call with AK,AQ,Aj,A10,JJ,1010, KQ. if you check and he has KK,QQ then he will most likey check the river and you can decide to value/push then. if he psuhes the river then again you beat nothing really. thats how i see it anyway

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

calling pf without a read is spew IMO

Re: Taking a shot at the 200NL, I encounter...
 

This hand is the perfect example of why AQ sucks when you get re-popped.
I guess the analysis that most matters is: what do you thing the range of hands are that he popped you pre-flop with? With no read, I assume its pretty narrow.

He then proceeds to bet out big. This, of course means something but could very well be any random pair attempting to represent the A, and then will shut down if you call.

Again, that's why AQ sucks in a big hand, and is much better suited for hands where no one expressed big pre flop agression. Her big brother AK is always lurking in big hands.

without a read, I fold preflop. With a read on villian as an aggro monkey , a doofus, or a little Ace guy, play it just the way you did.