utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

PokerStars Game #10776627908: Tournament #54607135, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2007/07/05 - 02:00:00 (ET)
Table '54607135 13' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: DarkLady (10240 in chips)
Seat 2: dud_ber (18628 in chips)
Seat 3: the_toys (12490 in chips)
Seat 5: riverfeverAA (2331 in chips)
Seat 7: Poohsangel (3140 in chips)
Seat 8: dobehave (11868 in chips)
Seat 9: thesidedish (24130 in chips)
DarkLady: posts the ante 50
dud_ber: posts the ante 50
the_toys: posts the ante 50
riverfeverAA: posts the ante 50
Poohsangel: posts the ante 50
dobehave: posts the ante 50
thesidedish: posts the ante 50
thesidedish: posts small blind 400
DarkLady: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***

99
4 till the money also,

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

id limp in

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

easy raise utg, who cares if it's 4 till the money, you're trying to maximize your expectation, not just make the money.

Edit: The reason I say raise is that the blinds and antes are valuable to your stack, I believe there's more value in raising than trying to play postflop against the blinds and any other limpers.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

so really, ur saying that raising a wide range of hands here is profitable bc of the antes, I just think if u get played back in any way 99 has no value here so u might as well be bumping up 23o
However i guess u might be able to get people off of better hands on giving flops, but u can do that with any two

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

Id raise, alot of people are going to fold their marginal hands so close to the money.. so youll mostly take down the pot right there.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

I'd just ship it in there. You have 13 BBs, I hate raise/folding with that stack and pushing is definitely +EV.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just ship it in there. You have 13 BBs, I hate raise/folding with that stack and pushing is definitely +EV.

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Pretty sure he has 23bb ... hard to read the way it got cut off

I'd raise 3bb, see where that gets me

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd just ship it in there. You have 13 BBs, I hate raise/folding with that stack and pushing is definitely +EV.

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Pretty sure he has 23bb ... hard to read the way it got cut off

I'd raise 3bb, see where that gets me

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Bleh, you're right. Converter ftw.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
99 has no value here so u might as well be bumping up 23o

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This isn't true as there are stacks behind which are small enough such that your calling their push, and thus 99 has value

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

Are you asking specifically about this hand or just in general? If you're asking about this hand....you're on the bubble, I like a raise here. The only hands that are going to war are those that are way ahead of you. In general I think the play is case specicfic. I will usually raise 75% and limp 25% of the time.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

Bet 3200 to cover both the shorties...

Or if you want to gamble... limp, wait for one shorty to shove over you and then call or re-raise all in if anyone else gets in the pot.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said). You can tolerate a call since you have a stack that can bust most of the table on the bubble, you've shown strength with an UTG raise, and you have a reasonable hand.

My only concern is that there are a couple stacks here that are the right size for restealing. If any of the 10k - 12k stacks decide to reraise-push over you, you'll have a decision to make. You can get away from it if someone repops without sacrificing a lot of tournament equity, but if you think they're smart/knowledgeable enough to just be making a resteal move, your 99 may play well against their range.

I don't think limping and playing for set value is terrible, but I don't think it's the best play. And raising enough to cover the small stacks is useless -- it's just putting more chips into the pot if you're gonna throw it away to a reraise-push. If any of the shorter stacks pushes over you, you're calling regardless (and they know that), so what's the use of making your inital raise cover them?

Matt

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

I'd raise to 3bb and call the pushes of the shorties obv. If one of the 3 10-12k stack pushes it depends on your read, but 99 will probably have a decent equity vs their range so I would probably call if they have not been really nitty. When one of the other big stacks comes over the top I fold my hand and move on.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said). You can tolerate a call since you have a stack that can bust most of the table on the bubble, you've shown strength with an UTG raise, and you have a reasonable hand.

My only concern is that there are a couple stacks here that are the right size for restealing. If any of the 10k - 12k stacks decide to reraise-push over you, you'll have a decision to make. You can get away from it if someone repops without sacrificing a lot of tournament equity, but if you think they're smart/knowledgeable enough to just be making a resteal move, your 99 may play well against their range.

I don't think limping and playing for set value is terrible, but I don't think it's the best play. And raising enough to cover the small stacks is useless -- it's just putting more chips into the pot if you're gonna throw it away to a reraise-push. If any of the shorter stacks pushes over you, you're calling regardless (and they know that), so what's the use of making your inital raise cover them?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't like the advice then give some instead of covering all the bases.

You cover the shorties precisely so that you reduce the restealing when they come in. It's a bet of 4x the BB... maybe you prefer minraising...

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

Raise standard. Call SS shoves. Fold to raise from most other stacks, unless they are resteal happy.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise standard. Call SS shoves. Fold to raise from most other stacks, unless they are resteal happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

i said b4 id limp but i did not explain why. im on the bubble i will call shorties but not the bigger if they raise. this is a perfect way to vary play and set up limp reraise w monster (i don't use the play often usuall when ive set it up or aggro player is here) . im showing weakness now to possibly double up later.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so really, ur saying that raising a wide range of hands here is profitable bc of the antes, I just think if u get played back in any way 99 has no value here so u might as well be bumping up 23o
However i guess u might be able to get people off of better hands on giving flops, but u can do that with any two

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said). You can tolerate a call since you have a stack that can bust most of the table on the bubble, you've shown strength with an UTG raise, and you have a reasonable hand.

My only concern is that there are a couple stacks here that are the right size for restealing. If any of the 10k - 12k stacks decide to reraise-push over you, you'll have a decision to make. You can get away from it if someone repops without sacrificing a lot of tournament equity, but if you think they're smart/knowledgeable enough to just be making a resteal move, your 99 may play well against their range.

I don't think limping and playing for set value is terrible, but I don't think it's the best play. And raising enough to cover the small stacks is useless -- it's just putting more chips into the pot if you're gonna throw it away to a reraise-push. If any of the shorter stacks pushes over you, you're calling regardless (and they know that), so what's the use of making your inital raise cover them?

Matt

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If any of the big stacks shove over me, I am very happy making a fold. Capable of re-stealing against an UTG raise? LOL. If people want to "re-steal" against my UTG raising range, be my guest because they have just slightly > 0 FE against it.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the advice then give some instead of covering all the bases.

You cover the shorties precisely so that you reduce the restealing when they come in. It's a bet of 4x the BB... maybe you prefer minraising...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where this came from, seeing as how I did give advice... and it was detailed and thorough. You don't need to make up stuff just because I disagree with you.

As for your rationale for raising the shortie's stack size, I don't get it, so please explain what you mean to me. Let's look at it both ways. A) You make a standard 3x raise, one of the shorties has a hand and they push. If it then folds to you, you call. But instead if a big stack repops, you can probably throw your hand away comfortably and you've lost only the 3x. B) You raise the amount of the shorties, one of the shorties (the one with about 4x in this case) calls for his stack. If it then folds to you, fine. But if one of the big stacks repops, you're in exactly the same spot as you were in (A) and will probably fold, but having lost more chips (and extra BB in this case).

If your argument is that the big stack is less likely to repop it if you make the bigger initial raise, I doubt that's true. I think they're only reraiseing with a very narrow range either way and I'd expect the ranges to be nearly identical. In fact, they may actually do it more often if you make a bigger initial raise because there's more dead money in the pot when they push to isolate on the short stack.

So I'm really not seeing the value of making a bigger raise than normal here. Again, if I'm missing something, please expalin it to me.

(And yes, I realize that the shortie's stack is only a little bigger than a standard 3x raise to being with so it's not a huge difference, but I'm looking at this from a theoretical/general point of view rather than this specific spot.)

Matt

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

I'm with Matt here. Making it 4x just so you cover the shorties is silly. If you make any raise here, they know you aren't folding to a push from them. It's not like the guy with 3140 chips is going to push trash over your raise to 2400 because he thinks you're going to fold to his raise. Don't worry about the shorties when you raise, at all. Worry about not risking too much because you have to fold to a reraise, as a few people have pointed out, and make a standard raise, either 2.5xBB to 3xBB sounds good to me here.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said).

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However i guess i am likely to have the best hand on the flop, and u can't do that with any two

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fyp.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

This is a standard hand, just make a normal raise pre to around 3xBB.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not like the guy with 3140 chips is going to push trash over your raise to 2400 because he thinks you're going to fold to his raise. Don't worry about the shorties when you raise, at all. Worry about not risking too much because you have to fold to a reraise, as a few people have pointed out, and make a standard raise, either 2.5xBB to 3xBB sounds good to me here.

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Sap/Seke

Then this is where we differ. I DO see shorty coming over top with any ace or any crap hand to gamble too often when short and I know i will in his spot. I am NOT worried about him... no not at all. What I am worried about is another raiser realizing that shorty is gambling and iso-raising us of the hand to go up against shorty alone and taking all the overlay (a move I like myself as big stack). And I hate the bet-fold line enough that I am willing to stick the other 800 to announce that my hand is good enough, to try to defend against the iso-raise/resteal to try making that move more difficult.

I think it works.. you don't.

Oh and sry saps... where did it come from? Having a bitchy day at work I guesss.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

In the spot you describe, are you calling the big stack's push?

If not, you're just wasting chips when he pushes. If you are, then I don't really see how the raises are fundamentally different.

So I guess the success of your bigger-raise move hinges on whether a big stack would be less likely to push when you open bigger. I personally think the impact it would have on his reraising range would be minimal, if any. And like I said earlier, I think he may even be more likely to push lighter if there's more dead money in the pot.

And no worries about the snap before. Been there.

Re: utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise standard. Call SS shoves. Fold to raise from most other stacks, unless they are resteal happy.

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QFT

Standurd.