Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

UTG+1 is 17/2/2 in 240 hands

MP1 is 12.6/4.7/2.7 in 13,000 hands.

CO is 19/5/3 in 290 hands

I haven't been doing anything out of the norm, and my game
is TAG overall.


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $99.65
UTG+1: $109.65
MP1: $114.80
MP2: $111.70
MP3: $102.80
CO: $98.50
Button: $115.10
SB: $17.50
Hero: $108.10

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $4</font>, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($16.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 bets $13.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $35</font>, <font color="#cc0000"> HERO...

HERO raises how much? I'm curious about what most people would do here. How much do you raise? (all-in I assume? Or less?) Or something else?
Thanks

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

I would have led the flop myself.

Given that action, I'd fold actually. Lower two pairs are basically impossible, and CO has a set here a lot.

If you do continue with this hand, you have to shove.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

I would fold this PF because we're OOP. Is this standard?

On the flop, we still have the PFR yet to act, which cannot be discounted. If we aren't in bad shape to a set already, then the straight, flush and higher two pair draws threaten us heavily. The two PF cold callers waking up indicates set. Definitely do not call. On balance, I'd say fold.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

I would fold, unfortunate, but it's a fold for me too. If I am ahead (which I doubt) My hand probably wont be best when all the cards are out.

I would have also lead out on flop 12ish.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold this PF because we're OOP. Is this standard?

On the flop, we still have the PFR yet to act, which cannot be discounted. If we aren't in bad shape to a set already, then the straight, flush and higher two pair draws threaten us heavily. The two PF cold callers waking up indicates set. Definitely do not call. On balance, I'd say fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think the preflop call is pushing it and I would call it standard. I wouldn't mind a 3-bet so much from the blind as a squeeze here, but I need a reason to call here, such as the original raiser stacks off too much or something. I don't think there is enough value in a call.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

I think pre-flop is fine, closing the action 4-handed. I like to see flops though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think pre-flop is fine, closing the action 4-handed. I like to see flops though, so take it with a grain of salt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I misread HH, thought it was going to be 3 handed, 4 handed is probably ok

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I need a reason to call here

[/ QUOTE ]A nice multi-way pot with 3 people in and we get to close the action? That's good enough for me. Sure I'd rather be in position and SCs don't play as well OOP, but I still there's value to be had here.

On the flop I check and then push after this action, but I guess I'm just spewy and bad. CO is your real worry here, as I think MP1's range consists of mostly overpairs, but CO's line looks like either a set or a big draw (which may have less outs against you than he thinks). The thing is, I think we can discount sets slightly because with you having paired the board twice there are less cards available for him to have made a set with.

Now if I had some reason to believe CO wouldn't do this with a draw, then I could find a fold here. (And since better players than I are suggesting a fold, a fold is likely in order [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

However, I don't understand why people are saying to lead this flop. This seems to be great for a c/r. You have a pf raiser who will often put in a bet, but if he doesn't you have two players who have overpairs a lot and will bet to protect their hands. Still, your hand is vulnerable so a c/r will end it quickly, or get it all in against a draw, which isn't a bad result for you.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

One question to those saying to fold here- doesn't 22 play pretty much the same? Would you fold that?

I realize 22 is less vulnerable to straights and flushes because of a better redraw, but since we're getting it all anyway is that a big concern? Or put another way, if straights and flushes are our big concern here, wouldn't we be correct to get it in with either 22 or our two pair? And if sets were our big concern, wouldn't folding both hands be correct?

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
One question to those saying to fold here- doesn't 22 play pretty much the same? Would you fold that?

I realize 22 is less vulnerable to straights and flushes because of a better redraw, but since we're getting it all anyway is that a big concern? Or put another way, if straights and flushes are our big concern here, wouldn't we be correct to get it in with either 22 or our two pair? And if sets were our big concern, wouldn't folding both hands be correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
22 is a bigger favorite against big draws, and a far bigger favorite against overpairs. Also, 22 is itself a significant part of CO's range here. I'd get it in with 22 here, 65 is close, but I think it's a fold.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
CO is your real worry here, as I think MP1's range consists of mostly overpairs

[/ QUOTE ]
MP could very well have a set himself. Notice he is ALSO a cold-caller, not the PFR.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

Like I said earlier, i thought it was going to be 3 handed, and OOP 3 handed with a SC I don't really like much, I may call like 25-30% of the time, but i don't think it is standard with only 3 to the flop. Had the bet been 3x with 3 to the flop I am ok, but with 4x I need 4 to the flop.

Closing action is always good.

It is probably pretty close to 22, but I think I like 22 better. With a SC I usually need more players. but I will take 22 HU against the right players.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

Playing for the c/r is fine here, but given the action I think its a fold. OOP with top 2 against this aggression is kinda a bad spot, unless you have reads that CO would slowplay a set. As for preflop, seems pretty standard to me, 4.5:1 odds.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP could very well have a set himself. Notice he is ALSO a cold-caller, not the PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]Well right, but we have more info on CO. MPs range is certainly wider than CO based on the info we have at the moment.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
OOP with top 2 against this aggression is kinda a bad spot

[/ QUOTE ]Our position doesn't matter at this point, since we'll be all in if we continue. The only question is if we want to based on the information we have.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, 22 is itself a significant part of CO's range here.

[/ QUOTE ]Well right, but only because we have a 5 and a 6, which makes 55 and 66 less likely for CO. If we had 22, those hands would now become more likely.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

I called preflop for several reasons:

1) Raiser probably was strong: Raiser was UTG and in my limited sample size had only raised 2% of the time
2) Pot odds: It's 3 to call and there is just over 12--so
getting just over 4 to 1 odds
3) Implied odds (3 dollars to win a lot more than 12--maybe even a stack if I can get lucky)
4) Good Relative position after the flop.

For the flop, I checked it with the intention of
check-raising--and I guess here the only option due to the size of the pot is to check-raise all-in. A check raise to 70 would give the CO great odds. So I guess it's all-in or
fold.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]

equity/ win/ tie/ pots won/ pots tied
Hand 0: 54.411% 53.86% 00.55% 449394 4596.67 { 6h5h }
Hand 1: 22.794% 21.96% 00.83% 183254 6936.67 { TT+, 66-55, AsKs }
Hand 2: 22.794% 21.96% 00.83% 183254 6936.67 { TT+, 66-55, AsKs }

[/ QUOTE ]
Given all the action in front of you. Protect your hand: Push All-In.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

equity/ win/ tie/ pots won/ pots tied
Hand 0: 54.411% 53.86% 00.55% 449394 4596.67 { 6h5h }
Hand 1: 22.794% 21.96% 00.83% 183254 6936.67 { TT+, 66-55, AsKs }
Hand 2: 22.794% 21.96% 00.83% 183254 6936.67 { TT+, 66-55, AsKs }

[/ QUOTE ]
Given all the action in front of you. Protect your hand: Push All-In.

[/ QUOTE ]You forgot 22, which is definitely in the ranges of both players. Also, MP has 66-99 in his range, though he won't be calling with them, and I'd be shocked if either player had KK+.

Re: Flopped two pair on flushy flop and LOT of action...It\'s to you...
 

I have seen people do all that with everybody having combos/overpairs, but I do think it's rare and one of the cold-callers is likely to have a set.