Two Plus Two Newer Archives - improving my WTSD

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improving my WTSD

my wtsd is barely above 30 so i'd like to improve it. i've looked through around 750 most recent hands and found the closest (in my view) call/fold decisions. i'd appreciate some feedback on which hands you think i made the wrong choice in. i know it's a lot of hands, but you can simply give the hand numbers where the last call/fold decision is wrong (for example you can just say "hands 3,6,10,11").

All hands are:
Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6

Hand 1. villain is 45/13/0.9 w/96 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.25BB

Hand 2. CO is 45/16/1.5 wtsd 37, BTN is 34/14/2.4 w/220 hands
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10.5SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls

the rest of this hand, if you want it, is below in white: 
, CO calls.

Turn: Jh (11.25BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

River: Tc (11.25BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 14.25BB


Hand 3. villain is 25/18/2.7 w/137 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 12BB

Hand 4. villain is 48/4/0.8 w/127 hands
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, CO folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to UTG.

the above fold looks completely standard to me, but what about if villain was something like 40/20/1.7?

Results:
Final pot: 4.25BB

Hand 5. villain is 52/20/1.1 wtsd40 w/550 hands
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

Hand 6. villain is 45/16/1.5 wtsd 37
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: 5.75BB

Hand 7. villain is 53/14/1.1 wtsd 33 w/1469 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Results:
Final pot: 6BB

Hand 8. villain is 26/16/2.0 wtsd 44 w/519 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB raises, CO folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1SB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 4.25BB

Hand 9. villain is 51/21/1.6 wtsd 33 w/136 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

here i can't decide between b/f, b/c, c/c, and c/f. i think it's b/f, right?

Results:
Final pot: 2.5BB

Hand 10. villain is 44/13/1.2 wtsd 40 w/4821 hands
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

Hand 11. villain is 45/17/1.7 wtsd 34 w/494 hands
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 3.5BB

Hand 12. villain is 52/16/1.8 w/262 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.75BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.75BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7.75BB

Hand 13. villain is 53/14/1.1 wtsd 33 w/1469 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to UTG.

also, turn play ok?

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

Hand 14. villain is 39/3/0.8 wtsd 30 w/1388 hands
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 3 players)
Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.75BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: 3.75BB

Hand 15. villain is 34/12/1.4 wtsd 39 w/1863 hands
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

the rest of the hand, if you want it, is below in white:


Turn: Th (3.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: 2s (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

probably a very bad bluff.

Results:
Final pot: 7.25BB

Re: improving my WTSD

Hand 1: Very close but I fold the river.

Hand 2: Looks okay, but usually fold the river. Putting them both on hands you beat is tough.

Hand 3: Doesn't look good but I don't ever fold.

Hand 4: Looks fine, change his stats a bit and I at least peel, maybe calldown.

Hand 5: I'd have to call the river vs. this dude.

Hand 6: Wp.

Hand 7: Tough... obviously inclined to show down but the jack is a really bad card and he raised in a multiway pot. I'd probably call the turn and reeval depending on the river (usually calling).

Hand 8: Gross. Gutter+bdfd...

Hand 9: Looks fine, he never folds. CR the turn next time it comes up.

Hand 10: Flop AF? I would probably just fold the flop here, even though it feels weak you're never in good shape and very often in horrible shape. River is an automuck given how it played out, consider raising turn for FSD but I would just give up earlier usually.

Hand 11: If you ever fold a pair in a blind war this looks like an OK time, but it's close as you typically have most of your outs and there's the huge donk factor to consider. I don't mind the fold though, esp. on the J turn.

Hand 12: I often check the turn here because I think you get raised a lot off the best hand. River is close, since he's so loose he could have been peeling garbage the whole way - but by the same token he could've just played A2 passively. Flip a coin maybe, I'd fold here though.

Hand 13: I don't 3-bet that pre. Turn is kind've a stove problem, even though narrowing this guy's range is not easy since he's likely awful.

Hand 14: There's definitely merit to firing again since gutshots make up a lot of his range, as well as stupid stuff that peeled one but will fold the turn. He's never going to semibluff raise you off the best hand either, which is good. I'd probably bet the turn.

Hand 15: Typically fold the flop here since you've probably got a bit of RIO attached to your pair outs. Throw in a BDSD and I might call. River bluff...meh. Nobody folds there rly.

Re: improving my WTSD

good god you fold a lot. I don't like about half these hands and hand 8 is lol awful.

Are you running terrible or have you always played like this? Perhaps you don't have alot of experience or PAHUD and don't know just how often people bet without top pair?

Re: improving my WTSD

You play a few of these hands pretty awful IMO.

1) I can find a fold here.

2) I am getting to SD on a lot of turns/rivers. The river call is close as the hand unfolded and I think I fold it.

3) I bet/call this as well. 77 is the only hand in his range that got there. I smell BS.

4) I never fold here.
- Villain is a moron
- When you raise and play aggro the passives sometimes play back with lesser holdings
- His VPIP/AF combo is actually not that passive
- But you dont really have enough hands to be sure about his aggression. You dont have reads?

Against a player that we know is aggressive that would be a pretty terrible fold.

5) LOL terrible! Dont fold the river. I would c/c. If he was more passive I would bet/fold.

6) I dont mind this one. If i knew he was aggresive I would call down bricks

7) ...

8) LOL terrible

9) I c/c
- You have outs
- You have SD value
- He will bet turn and check behind river sometimes
- He is calling any2 preflop and peeling his whole range on that flop. You eq is still good.

10) You have to call this one down IMO. But it surely helps with a read.

11) Looks ok to me

12) Looks ok to me

13) Postflop looks ok to me. I think 3-betting pre is spewish

14) I am not folding. He has PPs, A high and a lot of straight draws. Since he looks really passive I would just bet/fold it and reevaluate river.

15) I cant see how this hand affects your wtsd. I hate the bluff BTW.

Re: improving my WTSD

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5) LOL terrible! Dont fold the river. I would c/c. If he was more passive I would bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Don't fold here? I'm confused...

Re: improving my WTSD

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5) LOL terrible! Dont fold the river. I would c/c. If he was more passive I would bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Don't fold here? I'm confused...

[/ QUOTE ]

What's not to get? The guy's a major lag and you beat all A-high hands, a bunch of pairs, and a few busted str8 draws--all hands he could easily take to the river with this line on this board. Of course you're a decent-size dog when you check and he bets, so I'd prefer betting myself.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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5) LOL terrible! Dont fold the river. I would c/c. If he was more passive I would bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Don't fold here? I'm confused...

[/ QUOTE ]

What's not to get? The guy's a major lag and you beat all A-high hands, a bunch of pairs, and a few busted str8 draws--all hands he could easily take to the river with this line on this board. Of course you're a decent-size dog when you check and he bets, so I'd prefer betting myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno - calling this seems like a major major waste over the long haul. I'd c/f this river every time, even against a LAG, and betting out makes no sense to me whatsoever. For me it's c/f >> c/c >>> b/f >>>> b/c, with b/c being a huge, silly spew.

Re: improving my WTSD

1) Meh, whatever. Probably a fold against this guy, but not the worst call ever.

Hand 2: I think I fold the flop when it's two back to me. Even if you're good (which is doubtful) you have to dodge half the deck, twice, against 2 aggro opponents. This hand is the very definition of RIO.

3) Fine vs. villain this aggro. It's closer to a fold if there was no FD on the flop.

4) Looks fine. If villain is 1.7 AF you are probably calling down most boards here, maybe folding river UI.

5) [censored] up river card. If villain is any more aggro, easy call. Any less, easy fold. Flip a coin.

6) Great spot for turn value-check IMO. Villain is pretty aggro (remember that the looser an opponent PF, the more 'aggro' a given AF means he is) and there are a gazillion draws out there. You don't want to pay 3 to see show down, so B/F will mean you end up folding best hand a lot and he'll bet many many rivers if you check turn.

7) Fine. If he bets river, easy fold.

8) Jopke. This is closer to 3b then to fold.

9) B/C the turn. As played, for god's sake don't fold your 2overs + gutter in a bvb vs. aggro.

10) Fine, though raising or folding turn are also acceptable.

11) Terrible turn card. Probably fine even vs. someone this aggro.

12) Std.

13) B/C turn. C/F is fine on river as played.

14) Fine

15) Peel is fine. Turn semi-bluff raise >>>>> river bluff. He folds A hi never to your river bet, but might if you raised turn.

Re: improving my WTSD

Hand 1 - looks ok

Hand 2 - I'm outta there after the flop. Look back at button's action - he cold-called 3 bets pre-flop and then call/capped the flop. What could he have that you beat?

Hand 3 - looks ok. Raising the flop to see how he reacts wouldn't be bad, either.

Hand 4 - looks ok against a passive villain like that.

Hand 5 - ugh. That's a great river for you if he was calling down with Tx/Jx. Bet that puppy and wait for the "nice catch" comment after he folds. If he raises, it's an easy fold.

Hand 6 - good fold - I don't see him cold-calling your PFR with anything you beat at this point.

Hand 7 - I know you're supposed to raise AK pre-flop, but you're OOP in a multi-way pot. If you check here and flop an Ace/King, you're in a great spot to c/r the field. If you whiff (as you did here), it's easy to get away from - you don't feel obligated to c-bet into 3 players as happened here.

Hand 8 - I think everyone else has bashed this hand enough. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand 9 - I'd probably call the turn and re-evaluate on the river.

Hand 10 - calling the flop donk is probably the worst option there. I'd raise the flop and bet the turn and go from there. I see a lot of people donk bet low flops like this because they always put you on AK when you raise pre-flop.

Hand 11 - looks ok

Hand 12 - looks ok

Hand 13 - I probably fold the turn. If he hadn't raised pre-flop I might want to see a showdown, but not here.

Hand 14 - see comment for hand 7

Hand 15 - yeah, very bad river bluff. I like a semibluff on the turn (when you might have some fold equity against A-high) much better.

Re: improving my WTSD

I can't read all the hands cause I'm lazy, but hand 5 is definitely a call.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 10 - calling the flop donk is probably the worst option there. I'd raise the flop and bet the turn and go from there. I see a lot of people donk bet low flops like this because they always put you on AK when you raise pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you are saying here, but I'm not sure I agree with a flop raise, as there aren't a lot of hands I raise the flop HU in position. Villain will probably have seen me wait til the turn a few times with TPTK/overpair type hands, so might play back pretty hard on the turn if I raise flop. Or just 3b the flop, which puts me in a pretty tough spot even on this drawy board.

Re: improving my WTSD

dont post as many hands, you get crappy discussion. don't you wish scary had looked at more of your hands?!?

1. I can fold riv here

2. I show down unless board gets really scary. board got scary, I can fold the river here.

3. call is good vs this guy imo

4. close. fold is fine

5. I don't see why everyone thinks this is a call. like every draw got there and villain doesn't raise very many 3x 6x hands. even if he does, most will check those behind on the river. I see a lot of villains with these ind of stats who will bluff everything without sd value, but most villains don't turn their pairs into bluffs.

6. I call down here. there are a lot of draws that just became available.

7. I can find a fold here, that turn card sucks.

8. WE HAVE A GUTSHOT

9. I bet the turn here.

10. ok

11. ok

12. ok

13. I c/f turn. maybe this is a c/c though, it's close.

14. fine imo.

15. I don't bluff the river.

Re: improving my WTSD

thanks so much for great responses! i'd like to analyze my mistakes a little more to try to understand them conceptually. so let's forget about hand 8 - i just didn't see all of my outs there. also let's forget the terrible spewy bluff in hand 15. then, based on the comments, it seems the hands that i folded but possibly should have called are: 4,5,9,10, and 14. in this post, i will just collect the comments i got on these hands for easy reference (only those pertaining to call/fold decisions - though i certainly appreciated suggestions for other alternative plays). there's no reason to read them again unless you want an easy way to compare what different people thought. in the next post, i will summarize the comments and ask a couple of questions that will help me understand the decisions.

Hand 4. ATo

secretprankster: Looks fine, change his stats a bit and I at least peel, maybe calldown.

Oink: I never fold here.
- Villain is a moron
- When you raise and play aggro the passives sometimes play back with lesser holdings
- His VPIP/AF combo is actually not that passive
- But you dont really have enough hands to be sure about his aggression. You dont have reads?
Against a player that we know is aggressive that would be a pretty terrible fold.

sethypooh21: Looks fine. If villain is 1.7 AF you are probably calling down most boards here, maybe folding river UI.

stickdude: looks ok against a passive villain like that.

yourface: close. fold is fine

Hand 5. 77
secretprankster: I'd have to call the river vs. this dude.

Oink: LOL terrible! Dont fold the river. I would c/c. If he was more passive I would bet/fold.

BrassMonkey: I dunno - calling this seems like a major major waste over the long haul. I'd c/f this river every time, even against a LAG, and betting out makes no sense to me whatsoever. For me it's c/f >> c/c >>> b/f >>>> b/c, with b/c being a huge, silly spew.

vmacosta: What's not to get? The guy's a major lag and you beat all A-high hands, a bunch of pairs, and a few busted str8 draws--all hands he could easily take to the river with this line on this board. Of course you're a decent-size dog when you check and he bets, so I'd prefer betting myself.

sethypooh21: [censored] up river card. If villain is any more aggro, easy call. Any less, easy fold. Flip a coin.

Scary_Tiger: I can't read all the hands cause I'm lazy, but hand 5 is definitely a call.

yourface: I don't see why everyone thinks this is a call. like every draw got there and villain doesn't raise very many 3x 6x hands. even if he does, most will check those behind on the river. I see a lot of villains with these ind of stats who will bluff everything without sd value, but most villains don't turn their pairs into bluffs.

Hand 9. Q7o

secretprankster: Looks fine, he never folds. CR the turn next time it comes up.

Oink: I c/c
- You have outs
- You have SD value
- He will bet turn and check behind river sometimes
- He is calling any2 preflop and peeling his whole range on that flop. You eq is still good.

sethypooh21: B/C the turn. As played, for god's sake don't fold your 2overs + gutter in a bvb vs. aggro.

stickdude: I'd probably call the turn and re-evaluate on the river.

Hand 10. 44

secretprankster: Flop AF? I would probably just fold the flop here, even though it feels weak you're never in good shape and very often in horrible shape. River is an automuck given how it played out, consider raising turn for FSD but I would just give up earlier usually.

Oink: You have to call this one down IMO. But it surely helps with a read.

sethypooh21: Fine, though raising or folding turn are also acceptable.

yourface: ok

Hand 14. AJo

Oink: I am not folding. He has PPs, A high and a lot of straight draws. Since he looks really passive I would just bet/fold it and reevaluate river.

sethypooh21: Fine

yourface: fine imo.

Re: improving my WTSD

thanks to all who gave their opinion, i'm learning a lot here and hoping other people will find this discussion useful too. you don't have to read my previous post unless you want an easy way to look at different people's opinions on the hands. once again, let's forget about hand 8 - i just didn't see all of my outs there. also let's forget the terrible spewy bluff in hand 15. then, based on the comments, it seems the hands that i might have folded incorrectly are: 4,5,9,10, and 14. if i can summarize the comments on these hands:

Hand 4. I folded. 3 people agree, 1 disagrees.
Hand 5. I folded. 2 people agree, 4 disagree, 1 flips a coin
Hand 9. I folded. 1 person agrees, 3 disagree.
Hand 10. I folded. 3 people agree, 1 disagrees
Hand 14. I folded. 2 people agree, 1 disagrees.

overall, i'm a bit puzzled how my WTSD could be only 30 if out of 750 hands I made a fold that the majority disagreed on only in 2 hands (5 and 9). plus i made a couple of calls that some people found debatable. perhaps besides those 15 hands above there are others, where i thought the decision to fold was more obvious but maybe it's not.

in any case, a couple of questions:

for hand 4 (ATo, board 63J), i thought the fold was superstandard. i remember a while ago i asked about what to do if i raise AJo, unknown bb calls and then donks a Q,rag,rag rainbow flop and got the advice to fold. Oink, you believe i must call - what am i missing?

for hand 5 (77, board 36T J K), with three cards in the playing zone and three clubs, does a player with AF=1.1 really call down after my 3-bet and then bets a river (instead of checking behind) with a 4th or 5th pair, A high, or a hand like 45 (which he probably would have limped with pf) 1 out of 6 times? my guess was that most people with these stats usually check behind a weak showdownable hand and only bet something like 45. what's the chance that he hasn't accidentally connected with so many cards in the playing zone after he raised pf? from watching stox's videos i got the impression that he routinely folds in similar situations with the words: "i have to give him credit for a hand". finally, what's most confusing to me is, if we call in this hand, why would we fold in hand 6 with only 2 overcards to our pair, lots of possible draws, and a more aggressive villain?

for hand 10 (44, board 593 J Q), Oink - you say to call down. but what does a passive villain bet 3 streets with? the flush draw connected on the river. i'm just as confused as in hand 5. is he really on a complete 3 barrell bluff 1 out of 6 times without having accidentally connected?

Re: improving my WTSD

wtsd doesn't converge for a while
750 hands aint [censored]

Re: improving my WTSD

my wtsd is 30 over 80k hands

Re: improving my WTSD

What the hell about people folding in hand 5!?!?! I am chocked!

The guy is a LAG. He will call the flop and turn with A high, 66, 55, 44, 22, 98, 97, 87, 54, Q8, A6, A3. Ok so some of them needs to be discounted and the river is not good but I would never ever fold this hand in this spot against that guy. What the hell is up with the expert folds against LAG morons?!?!?

Re: improving my WTSD

I usually call in 10 and 14.

Also, everybody knows to showdown AA it's what you do with Ajo UI that gives you 35 or 45 wtsd.

My wtsd is 43 and I really don't know how to play a poker style that would bring me lower than 40. You can prob win with 30 but almost all of the successful higher limit players have wtsd 38+ in my limited experience (perhaps some of the dataminers can verify?)

Re: improving my WTSD

Limits really matter.

- Better players at higher limits will call you down more thinly.
- You have a lot more +EV call downs with marginal hands since the better players at higher limits will play more aggressive with draws.
- Because higher limit games are more aggressive you check more on the turn with SD'able hands and will get raised of your hand less.
- You play fewer multiway pots on higher limits. Your wtsd is obviously higher the shorter the pots are because folding is more often correct in protected pots.

A wtsd of 30 seems awfully low. But I doubt you need it much higher than 35 at low stakes. But obviously this depends on how the games play.

But remember that your wtsd depends just as much on how often your opponents call you down as how much you call down. If you play weak tight games you will never get a high wtsd

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell about people folding in hand 5!?!?! I am chocked!

The guy is a LAG. He will call the flop and turn with A high, 66, 55, 44, 22, 98, 97, 87, 54, Q8, A6, A3. Ok so some of them needs to be discounted and the river is not good but I would never ever fold this hand in this spot against that guy. What the hell is up with the expert folds against LAG morons?!?!?

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Even with his high VPIP, villain is not that laggy. Every draw in creation came in, and it's entirely possible villain is bluffing with the best hand.

I told OP to flip a coin, but I call here all day. But it's well established that I'm a SD monkey.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell about people folding in hand 5!?!?! I am chocked!

The guy is a LAG. He will call the flop and turn with A high, 66, 55, 44, 22, 98, 97, 87, 54, Q8, A6, A3. Ok so some of them needs to be discounted and the river is not good but I would never ever fold this hand in this spot against that guy. What the hell is up with the expert folds against LAG morons?!?!?

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ok, i'm starting to see why hand 5 might be a call. to verify this, i probably need to count combos to see if the ones he probably bets account for 1/6 of his range.

still very confused about my low wtsd. the vast majority of my opponents have wtsd above 35 and very often above 40, so they are not weak tight. to increase my wtsd by 5% i'd have to get to showdown around 35 extra times in 750 hands (assuming i see a flop roughly 1/3 of the time). if i only made a 2-4 wrong folds i don't see how this is possible.

Re: improving my WTSD

Havent read much of it but I think hand 5 is definitely C/C.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
to increase my wtsd by 5% i'd have to get to showdown around 35 extra times in 750 hands (assuming i see a flop roughly 1/3 of the time). if i only made a 2-4 wrong folds i don't see how this is possible.

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It is entirely possible that your sample wasn't valid (750 hands really won't reveal much) and it is also possible that you are looking at the wrong things. I agree with you that many of those hands are marginal. If you have the habit of always folding on the margin though, then good opponents will force you to make mistakes where the action doesn't look at all marginal to you. If someone is folding too often to pressure then you better believe that I will pick a few spots to apply extra pressure with a second best hand. Full Tilt 3/6 is aggressive enough that you need to find more ways to get to showdown, even if that means giving free cards where you wouldn't be comfortable with a raise. b/f is a valid line but against some opponents it is better just to get to showdown with marginal made hands while snapping off river bluffs.

Out of curiosity, what is your overall river fold percentage?

Re: improving my WTSD

Two other hands where you called and most disagreed were H1 and H2. I actually agree with your call down in H1 (hero QsJd 9 K 2Q rainbow) i think this can be a worse hand which is then forced to bet the river, surprised so many want to fold this.

For hand two (hero AdQh 9cTsQs) there seems to be a range of opinion but but most seem to agree with the Flop call and disagree with the river call. Like you I would probably call this river not feeling good about my hand.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to increase my wtsd by 5% i'd have to get to showdown around 35 extra times in 750 hands (assuming i see a flop roughly 1/3 of the time). if i only made a 2-4 wrong folds i don't see how this is possible.

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It is entirely possible that your sample wasn't valid (750 hands really won't reveal much) and it is also possible that you are looking at the wrong things. I agree with you that many of those hands are marginal. If you have the habit of always folding on the margin though, then good opponents will force you to make mistakes where the action doesn't look at all marginal to you. If someone is folding too often to pressure then you better believe that I will pick a few spots to apply extra pressure with a second best hand. Full Tilt 3/6 is aggressive enough that you need to find more ways to get to showdown, even if that means giving free cards where you wouldn't be comfortable with a raise. b/f is a valid line but against some opponents it is better just to get to showdown with marginal made hands while snapping off river bluffs.

Out of curiosity, what is your overall river fold percentage?

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for the last 80k hands my wtsd is 30.7% and fold to river bet is 45.8%
for the last 27k hands these numbers are 30.0% and 47.3% respectively.

the 750 hands should be enough to reveal at least 20 extra hands where i should have gotten to showdown if the average number of such hands is 35.

is there any trick to make PAHUD display your overall stats (like fold to flop %) and not just stats for this session?

Re: improving my WTSD

i'm also calling the river in hand 5, though bet-fold is reasonable.

hand 6 looks like a bad fold to me, there are a million hands that are semi-bluff raising that turn, plus you've probably got 4-6 outs to improve if you are behind.

hand 9 bet-fold the turn is standard, check-fold is real weak sauce in that spot. if you do this a lot you're going to get floated to death. check-raise would be super freaky if he's doing this all the time.

hand 10 find a raise somewhere, flop or prob turn. why are you assuming you're behind? many people with donk with any two on that board. you've got nearly 5000 hands on this guy but no read on what a donk means?? as played i've got no idea what to do on the river, probably a fold is ok.

hand 14 - this is probably ok, but again if it looks like you give up easily out of position this could be a float. something to be aware of.

one further thing, i don't much like raising limpers with unsuited high cards from the blinds, multiway especially (i.e AK in hand 7 is asking for trouble unless the field is super passive). unless you're doing this with a decent range it gives away your hand and makes you easier to play against, and plus gives others the odds to chase further.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
i'm also calling the river in hand 5, though bet-fold is reasonable.

hand 6 looks like a bad fold to me, there are a million hands that are semi-bluff raising that turn, plus you've probably got 4-6 outs to improve if you are behind.

hand 9 bet-fold the turn is standard, check-fold is real weak sauce in that spot. if you do this a lot you're going to get floated to death. check-raise would be super freaky if he's doing this all the time.

hand 10 find a raise somewhere, flop or prob turn. why are you assuming you're behind? many people with donk with any two on that board. you've got nearly 5000 hands on this guy but no read on what a donk means?? as played i've got no idea what to do on the river, probably a fold is ok.

hand 14 - this is probably ok, but again if it looks like you give up easily out of position this could be a float. something to be aware of.

one further thing, i don't much like raising limpers with unsuited high cards from the blinds, multiway especially (i.e AK in hand 7 is asking for trouble unless the field is super passive). unless you're doing this with a decent range it gives away your hand and makes you easier to play against, and plus gives others the odds to chase further.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the flop in hand 10 is a mistake imo. we don't want to get semibluffed off the best hand and most villains will keep betting our hand for us with a draw. turn fsdr is ok I guess but I think a better line is to let villain barrel off. assuming villain bets the river with non-showdownable hands (safe assumption imo) we win the same from missed draws, we lose less to draws that get there because we can safely fold to certain river cards, and again we avoid being pushed off the best hand.

and you've gots to raise AKo preflop in hand 7. you have a significant equity edge you need to push.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
turn fsdr is ok I guess but I think a better line is to let villain barrel off. assuming villain bets the river with non-showdownable hands (safe assumption imo) we win the same from missed draws, we lose less to draws that get there because we can safely fold to certain river cards, and again we avoid being pushed off the best hand.

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maybe, not sure about this. it's pretty close. if we don't raise the turn we probably have to call most rivers imho, so not sure we lose less when draws get there. i'd rather raise while probably ahead - as i said though a lot depends on the read on the flop donk. i'm also not so sure this villian is definitely putting in another bet on the river with a busted draw, maybe. raising the turn here also provides some balance for semi-bluff turn raises.

[ QUOTE ]
and you've gots to raise AKo preflop in hand 7. you have a significant equity edge you need to push.

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your equity changes so drastically on the flop in this situation i'd rather wait and see it before putting in more bets. you're bloating the pot out of position, with cards unlikely to win unimproved multiway, i don't like doing that except against certain opposition. if they're suited i'll raise.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
i'm also calling the river in hand 5, though bet-fold is reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree about b/f, because with so many overcards my hand is at most a bluff-catcher.

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hand 6 looks like a bad fold to me, there are a million hands that are semi-bluff raising that turn, plus you've probably got 4-6 outs to improve if you are behind.

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i have 99, so i don't see how i can have more than 2 outs.

[ QUOTE ]

hand 9 bet-fold the turn is standard, check-fold is real weak sauce in that spot. if you do this a lot you're going to get floated to death. check-raise would be super freaky if he's doing this all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
though b/f may be correct (hard for me to say), it is certainly not standard, because the other posted opinions were c/c (2 times), b/c (1 time), c/f (1 time), b/? (1 time, no second action given)

[ QUOTE ]

hand 10 find a raise somewhere, flop or prob turn. why are you assuming you're behind? many people with donk with any two on that board. you've got nearly 5000 hands on this guy but no read on what a donk means?? as played i've got no idea what to do on the river, probably a fold is ok.

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i'm assuming i'm behind because my equity is certainly less than 50% against his range. the 5000 hands are datamined, i haven't played with this guy much.

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one further thing, i don't much like raising limpers with unsuited high cards from the blinds, multiway especially (i.e AK in hand 7 is asking for trouble unless the field is super passive). unless you're doing this with a decent range it gives away your hand and makes you easier to play against, and plus gives others the odds to chase further.

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if i exclude AK from my raising range, my range would be even narrower, so by this logic i'd give away my hand even more when i raise. in any case, it looks like you are new to the forum. i'm also pretty new, but i think much more real evidence is required to make statements about correct preflop play, especially if the play you recommend is non-standard. if it were that simple to prove which play is correct, poker would be easy. the "real evidence" i'm talking about would include:

- statistical data with sufficient sample size for both strategies
- results of simulations
- quoting the opinion of a well-known author
- the fact that you are a proven excellent player so that if one knows you do something, it is more like to be correct

for this last reason, if similar advice was given by an established player on this forum, it would make much more sense to simply trust it without requiring any hard data. as it is, nobody yet knows what kind of player you are. moreover, this precise advice and argument that you give can be found in one of standard poker books (possibly Johny Chan's, i can't remember now), so just by stating your source you could have provided the kind of "real evidence" i was talking about.

Re: improving my WTSD

[ QUOTE ]
one further thing, i don't much like raising limpers with unsuited high cards from the blinds, multiway especially (i.e AK in hand 7 is asking for trouble unless the field is super passive). unless you're doing this with a decent range it gives away your hand and makes you easier to play against, and plus gives others the odds to chase further.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not pushing the eq edge here with AK against this many villains is a significant mistake. Saying Hero should call to decrease their odds to chase later on is a terrible line of thinking. So you should also check behind a marginal hand like 2nd pair on the flop so villains dont have odds to call with their draws on the turn?

[ QUOTE ]
hand 10 find a raise somewhere, flop or prob turn. why are you assuming you're behind? many people with donk with any two on that board. you've got nearly 5000 hands on this guy but no read on what a donk means?? as played i've got no idea what to do on the river, probably a fold is ok.

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I think raising is an option against some players. But without reads I prefer to play it passively. Whether a raise is good REALLY depends on what villain donks with and without reads I always assume they donk with made hands more often than draws. Other than that Yourface explains pretty well why raising the 44 is a mistake often enough.