Red Rock & Green Valley rake rises - Stations?
 

The rake at Red Rock has increased to a maximum of $5 (not including the $1 BBJ drop). This happened over the weekend. Will players make a big stink about this?

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

I was planning on visiting. I won't now. They should or it might spread through Las Vegas.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

"Red Rock rake rises"

Kinda tricky to say this 5 times fast.

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Oh, there will be a stink raised over this travesty. Stations casinos are mostly populated with locals. Locals in vegas pretty much equals nits, but in some cases, mega-nits. This will hurt their business, but the extra rake will probably about make up for the players who smartly choose to play elsewhere. Given their location the room will probably stay open, but once again las vegas (aka disneyland) ceo mentality is "get the money from poker, but screw the players."

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

Let me explain something here. Splain it to ya. The execs in charge of poker in las vegas are almost entirely total idiots. Therefore whatever the stupidest and worst for poker possible decision is, that's the one they usually make.

Now let me ask you a question. How much is a coke at disneyland? Soft drinks are surprisingly expensive there. And if disneyland had the choice of charging $4 or $5 for said coke, which option do you think they will take?

Al

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

I just spent the weekend playing SSHE at the Green Valley. Talk about ubernits, wow. Even with an increase in rake it has to be a decent room to play... I'm talking about seeing full houses checked behind on river, people never raise flush/straight/set unless it is the unbeatable nuts. I must have saved 20 BB's or more in only a few hundred limit hands just from this stuff.

How big is the rake versus more friendly rooms? Should I play somewhere else next time unless it is reduced? Station games are really soft IMO.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

All:

Its still cheaper than LA and some other markets. Sad but true. Sounds like they are trying this at RedRock to see if it will work, thats the most remote of all the rooms with the most loyal customer base.

Anyone know what limits this applies to, or is it all?

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me explain something here. Splain it to ya. The execs in charge of poker in las vegas are almost entirely total idiots. Therefore whatever the stupidest and worst for poker possible decision is, that's the one they usually make.

Now let me ask you a question. How much is a coke at disneyland? Soft drinks are surprisingly expensive there. And if disneyland had the choice of charging $4 or $5 for said coke, which option do you think they will take?

Al

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Big difference, Disney has a monopoly on drinks sold inside their park, very few people will leave to get food/drinks once they are inside unless they are leaving for the day. People can decide to play/stay elsewhere for poker.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Red Rock rake rises"

Kinda tricky to say this 5 times fast.

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I messed it up on my first try. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

Wow, this is depressing. So now a $50 pot at 4-8 costs $7 including a toke. Wouldn't this same pot at Wynn be $4 including a $1 toke? This makes a huge difference in hourly rake.

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If we want to open another can of worms, don't we stop toking if the rake is too high?

I don't stop all together in an over-raked game but I sure cut back on most of the tipping.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

People whined a few years ago when rooms went to $4.00 from $3.00. Nothing happened though. Poker isn't immune from inflation.

Also, the Red Rock is sick sick sick busy on the weekends. This makes perfect sense for them from a demand standpoint. They will be full on the weekends no matter what.

And during the week, the vast majority of their customers aren't going to drive an extra 30-45 minutes roundtrip to play on the strip to avoid an extra dollar. Heck, that's $5.00 in gas right there, plus the hassle. Location is by far the #1 driver for most local gamers.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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People whined a few years ago when rooms went to $4.00 from $3.00. Nothing happened though. Poker isn't immune from inflation.



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True, but if inflation is the driving cause then the stakes should go up as well. I wouldn't mind a rise in rake if they would do away with 2-4 and 3-6 games.

Sigh, but that won't happen. I noticed in Vegas that a lot of tourists wanted to pay X dollars for the poker experience, not actually play and win.

I'm sure we could have a fun time explaining to tourists that we'd be better off in a bigger game.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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If we want to open another can of worms, don't we stop toking if the rake is too high?

I don't stop all together in an over-raked game but I sure cut back on most of the tipping.

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Get off the soap box. This isn't a tipping thread. There is no reason to hurt the dealer's because the casino raised the rake.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we want to open another can of worms, don't we stop toking if the rake is too high?

I don't stop all together in an over-raked game but I sure cut back on most of the tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get off the soap box. This isn't a tipping thread. There is no reason to hurt the dealer's because the casino raised the rake.

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It's not about hurting the dealers.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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If we want to open another can of worms, don't we stop toking if the rake is too high?

I don't stop all together in an over-raked game but I sure cut back on most of the tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get off the soap box. This isn't a tipping thread. There is no reason to hurt the dealer's because the casino raised the rake.

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It's not about hurting the dealers.

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Here we go again.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

I if RR got rid of 2-4 do you think it would drive more traffic to the 8-16? Is there a spillover effect of raising the lowest limit that kinda pushs people up, or would everyone just still play 4-8?
I wish they could get a 15-30 going.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we want to open another can of worms, don't we stop toking if the rake is too high?

I don't stop all together in an over-raked game but I sure cut back on most of the tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get off the soap box. This isn't a tipping thread. There is no reason to hurt the dealer's because the casino raised the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although normally I think Photoc would be correct the moment a tipping discussion turns to a soapbox issue, this is a good example of a time where I would expect many of the locals to exercise this option and therefore is fair ground to discuss. Personally I think its the wrong choice, but the forum can't ignore the fact that many people will show their anger by refusing to tip and in turn affecting management over time (after first affecting the dealers of course).

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we want to open another can of worms, don't we stop toking if the rake is too high?

I don't stop all together in an over-raked game but I sure cut back on most of the tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get off the soap box. This isn't a tipping thread. There is no reason to hurt the dealer's because the casino raised the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although normally I think Photoc would be correct the moment a tipping discussion turns to a soapbox issue, this is a good example of a time where I would expect many of the locals to exercise this option and therefore is fair ground to discuss. Personally I think its the wrong choice, but the forum can't ignore the fact that many people will show their anger by refusing to tip and in turn affecting management over time (after first affecting the dealers of course).

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100% won't happen in any meaningful way for more than a brief period.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

Silly outsider question:

Are the Las Vegas casinos free to choose what rake they charge? I'm more accustomed to the idea of gambling-commission-mandated maximum rakes (which 99.9% of the rooms take), and a big fuss about changing the rake once every ten years or so...

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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[ QUOTE ]
People whined a few years ago when rooms went to $4.00 from $3.00. Nothing happened though. Poker isn't immune from inflation.



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True, but if inflation is the driving cause then the stakes should go up as well. I wouldn't mind a rise in rake if they would do away with 2-4 and 3-6 games.

Sigh, but that won't happen. I noticed in Vegas that a lot of tourists wanted to pay X dollars for the poker experience, not actually play and win.

I'm sure we could have a fun time explaining to tourists that we'd be better off in a bigger game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The room spreads what people want to play. The room can't force players to play larger stakes. However, the cost to operate doesn't stop rising. In 10 years one of two things will happen: There will be far far far fewer poker tables in Vegas, or the Rake will be >$5/hand.

Remember, the standard in Vegas not that long ago was 5% up to $3/hand with no jackpot. Now it's 10% up to $4 with a jackpot. Some rooms more, some rooms less, but I'd be very surpsied if the standard doesn't become $5/hand soon (jackpot optional) pretty soon, especially if poker continues to retain a lot of the gains it's made over the last few years.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

TT,
I think in the lower limit games 4/8 and down, maybe 8/16 and down ass long as there is white chips in the pot the dealers will get a toke. It may have a small effect (less than 1,000) on their yearly take.
In the upper limit game if a 15/30 was spread there it would have a bigger effect because of the need to earn of the working/aspiring pro.
As for the extra $1.00 being taken I do not think it will stop the local traffic in that area. It is a fairly affluent part of town that hits that casino.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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Silly outsider question:

Are the Las Vegas casinos free to choose what rake they charge?

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Yep, anywhere from 2.50 to 5.00 /hand is in place atm. Plus time charges. So pretty much anything goes.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
Silly outsider question:

Are the Las Vegas casinos free to choose what rake they charge? I'm more accustomed to the idea of gambling-commission-mandated maximum rakes (which 99.9% of the rooms take), and a big fuss about changing the rake once every ten years or so...

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There is a max rake set by Gaming . . . Its 10%. Red Rock isn't exceeding this.

Remember also that a jackpot drop isn't the same thing as rake.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

I'm predicting we will see the $2 jackpot drop hit Vegas within a year.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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I'm predicting we will see the $2 jackpot drop hit Vegas within a year.

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Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see "weekday rake" and "weekend rake".

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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I if RR got rid of 2-4 do you think it would drive more traffic to the 8-16? Is there a spillover effect of raising the lowest limit that kinda pushs people up, or would everyone just still play 4-8?
I wish they could get a 15-30 going.

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I believe some people will play whatever the smallest game in the house is, be it 2-4, 3-6, 4-8 etc.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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I'm predicting we will see the $2 jackpot drop hit Vegas within a year.

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Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see "weekday rake" and "weekend rake".

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Both of these exist in markets outside of Vegas. The $2 jackpot drop exists within 90 miles of Vegas.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

Luxor has it now. 1 on 10, 1 on 20.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

This really really sucks. I love the Red Rock room. The 8-16 has been really juicy lately as well. And I get in maybe 5 hands/hour more compared to the Wynn because the limit players play so fast (and the dealers are great). Oh well.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

Do most players even know what a rake is at 3/6 or 4/8? I'll bet if you asked a random table that more than half would not even have a clue.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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Do most players even know what a rake is at 3/6 or 4/8? I'll bet if you asked a random table that more than half would not even have a clue.

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They don't. I was playing in 4/8 at Mandalay and table got down to 5 handed, so I asked for a rake reduction. Floor said we could get rake reduced, but they would also have to take out jackpot - so 2$-3$ less taken out per hand, but the table wouldn't go for it because they wanted to be eligible for the crappy high hand jackpot.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
I if RR got rid of 2-4 do you think it would drive more traffic to the 8-16? Is there a spillover effect of raising the lowest limit that kinda pushs people up, or would everyone just still play 4-8?
I wish they could get a 15-30 going.

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Number of 4/8 tables at RR are usually 3:1 or better.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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This really really sucks. I love the Red Rock room. The 8-16 has been really juicy lately as well. And I get in maybe 5 hands/hour more compared to the Wynn because the limit players play so fast (and the dealers are great). Oh well.

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I played in the RR 8/16 2x, it was ridiculously slow compared to the Wynn game. I felt the dealers were the cause, they were too busy socializing and spent little time managing the game's pace. I think we had very different experiences, it wasn't worth my time investment to play there again.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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Do most players even know what a rake is at 3/6 or 4/8? I'll bet if you asked a random table that more than half would not even have a clue.

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I think the players at RR are more likely to notice the difference in the low limit games than the players at a strip based room. But I also doubt it will affect RR in the long run.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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Luxor has it now. 1 on 10, 1 on 20.

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And they only pay a miserable $20 for quads!

They have increased the max buyin to $100, but this remains the crappiest game in town, with their stupid 1:1:2 blinds.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

Man, I played the 8-16 tonight and it was bitch-city all over the room. I heard probably 10 discussions about the rake. I am sure it is here to stay, as stations greed will overcome any player considerations, but people were not taking it well, verbally at least (we will see what their actions are).

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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Man, I played the 8-16 tonight and it was bitch-city all over the room. I heard probably 10 discussions about the rake. I am sure it is here to stay, as stations greed will overcome any player considerations, but people were not taking it well, verbally at least (we will see what their actions are).

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All standard. In a month it'll be business as usual with virtually no impact to the # of games being spread.

Do they charge time for their smaller NL games?

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

[ QUOTE ]
Man, I played the 8-16 tonight and it was bitch-city all over the room. I heard probably 10 discussions about the rake. I am sure it is here to stay, as stations greed will overcome any player considerations, but people were not taking it well, verbally at least (we will see what their actions are).

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Let's see.

RR raises rake, players are bitching.

THEY STILL PLAY!!!!!!

Sounds like the WSOP players griping about $6 hamburger, but ordering 2.

Poker players are funny people.

Re: Red Rock rake rises
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Man, I played the 8-16 tonight and it was bitch-city all over the room. I heard probably 10 discussions about the rake. I am sure it is here to stay, as stations greed will overcome any player considerations, but people were not taking it well, verbally at least (we will see what their actions are).

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see.

RR raises rake, players are bitching.

THEY STILL PLAY!!!!!!

Sounds like the WSOP players griping about $6 hamburger, but ordering 2.

Poker players are funny people.

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I have no illusions that this will get reversed, or that you aren't correct that people will still play, but it did just happen Sat at midnight. There may still be some fallout from players from this - I wouldn't expect people to march out the first time they sit down. It may affect where they go next time for a few.
This may help the suncoast room A LOT - 3 dollar max rake there on all games.
The 8-16 actually is not too bad as they step the rake like Wynn does, not a straight 10% - the last dollar doesn't come out until $120 pot. That eases the pain a little.
To whoever asked about NL, the pots are raked at 1-2 and 2-5, not a time charge. I am not sure about 5-10 or the 10-25 they got going this past weekend as I don't play that high.