Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

Live 50/100 at Rio, 4 handed. DD, two super fish and me.

I open on the button with 97s, SB who is super loose but passive preflop 3 bets, DeathDonkey 4 bets in the big blind.

Call or fold? How close?

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

ppl in general call here too often imo. I fold this and 98s in the situation described.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

fold.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

I'd call, but I can see arguments for both capping and folding.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

If SB is rarely 3-betting you ever and you've noticed it, then DD has probably noticed it too and isn't 4-betting lightly. If that's the case I'd fold.

In a typical situation I'd call.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

what about aj? ats? kqo?

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

lol what people arent realising here is chris has 66 and 98s and other hands here too often. he's more weighted to have something beefy and good, but not always by any stretch. sb sounds like a pretty bad player meaning there are nice implied odds should joe make something better than a pair. also chris is kind of scared of joe playing weak tight giving joe some semibluff wiggle room and more implied odds deception value post flop.

easiest call in the world. to fold would be very wrong in this live game.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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lol what people arent realising here is chris has 66 and 98s and other hands here too often.

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if this is true, then he is playing bad.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

"if this is true, then he is playing bad."

he'll correct me if im wrong in this case but i doubt i am, and from my experience it's how he plays. and i defy you to beat him, he would eat you alive. he's one of the toughest live players ive played against, and ive played some pretty tough ones.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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"if this is true, then he is playing bad."

he'll correct me if im wrong in this case but i doubt i am, and from my experience it's how he plays. and i defy you to beat him, he would eat you alive. he's one of the toughest live players ive played against, and ive played some pretty tough ones.

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In this hand, with this description from Joe Tall, if DD shows up with 66 or 98s, it is bad. Joe's description makes it sound like SB is never 3-betting preflop.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

i call here but i'd fold KQo and AJo is that retarded?

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

no that's good. i would do the same.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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"if this is true, then he is playing bad."

he'll correct me if im wrong in this case but i doubt i am, and from my experience it's how he plays. and i defy you to beat him, he would eat you alive. he's one of the toughest live players ive played against, and ive played some pretty tough ones.

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none of this changes the fact that if Joe's description of SB is accurate, cold 4barrelling here with 66 or 98s is bad. besides, i am not sure how this post is about me vs. deathdonkey. i thought it was deathdonkey vs. joetall vs. some guy in the SB who never raises preflop.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

i need to tell you the way chris described the hand to me. he said joe raised and then sb reraised and dd described him like joe did. then he said "and then im in the bb, and im playing the way i play, and i 4 bet."

even if chris is playing super tight in this spot which i doubt he is (selective is one thing, tight is another), 97s is not going to be in much harm here getting 5 to 1 with position and one of the players being passive. all sorts of button raising hands belong in the muck here, 97s is not one of them.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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i need to tell you the way chris described the hand to me. he said joe raised and then sb reraised and dd described him like joe did. then he said "and then im in the bb, and im playing the way i play, and i 4 bet."

even if chris is playing super tight in this spot which i doubt he is (selective is one thing, tight is another), 97s is not going to be in much harm here getting 5 to 1 with position and one of the players being passive. all sorts of button raising hands belong in the muck here, 97s is not one of them.

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you are neglecting the fact that SB may very well have a capping hand here, and since he never raises, the probability that he is sitting on AA goes up a lot.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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i need to tell you the way chris described the hand to me. he said joe raised and then sb reraised and dd described him like joe did. then he said "and then im in the bb, and im playing the way i play, and i 4 bet."

even if chris is playing super tight in this spot which i doubt he is (selective is one thing, tight is another), 97s is not going to be in much harm here getting 5 to 1 with position and one of the players being passive. all sorts of button raising hands belong in the muck here, 97s is not one of them.

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you are neglecting the fact that SB may very well have a capping hand here, and since he never raises, the probability that he is sitting on AA goes up a lot.

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Additionally, not only is the probability way high that the SB has a premium hand, he is said to play passively, so the times your 97 makes two pair/trips/straight/flush, you aren't even going to get excessive action.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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i need to tell you the way chris described the hand to me. he said joe raised and then sb reraised and dd described him like joe did. then he said "and then im in the bb, and im playing the way i play, and i 4 bet."

even if chris is playing super tight in this spot which i doubt he is (selective is one thing, tight is another), 97s is not going to be in much harm here getting 5 to 1 with position and one of the players being passive. all sorts of button raising hands belong in the muck here, 97s is not one of them.

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you are neglecting the fact that SB may very well have a capping hand here, and since he never raises, the probability that he is sitting on AA goes up a lot.

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Additionally, not only is the probability way high that the SB has a premium hand, he is said to play passively, so the times your 97 makes two pair/trips/straight/flush, you aren't even going to get excessive action.

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you will if it comes A97.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around. besides, given his description, he may go limp with hands that still have you murdered, like QQ-99.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

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Well, then it clearly depends on the definition of passive. I assumed he used that term because the guy just doesn't raise much. I guess it is moot until Joe clarifies what 'passive' means.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

The description said super loose but passive pre-flop. "Super loose" doesn't indicate to me that you're not going to get action post-flop when you hit good.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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i call here but i'd fold KQo and AJo is that retarded?

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Not retarded at all. You are folding hands that are likely dominated and playing a hand that is not likely to want cards already in the hands of opponents.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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i need to tell you the way chris described the hand to me. he said joe raised and then sb reraised and dd described him like joe did. then he said "and then im in the bb, and im playing the way i play, and i 4 bet."

even if chris is playing super tight in this spot which i doubt he is (selective is one thing, tight is another), 97s is not going to be in much harm here getting 5 to 1 with position and one of the players being passive. all sorts of button raising hands belong in the muck here, 97s is not one of them.

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you are neglecting the fact that SB may very well have a capping hand here, and since he never raises, the probability that he is sitting on AA goes up a lot.

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Additionally, not only is the probability way high that the SB has a premium hand, he is said to play passively, so the times your 97 makes two pair/trips/straight/flush, you aren't even going to get excessive action.

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but the converse is more true and very beneficial for us e.g. we won't get punished too severley when we make a second best or when we push draws.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

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talking with joe today, that was the exact range he thought he had pre by 3betting.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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i need to tell you the way chris described the hand to me. he said joe raised and then sb reraised and dd described him like joe did. then he said "and then im in the bb, and im playing the way i play, and i 4 bet."

even if chris is playing super tight in this spot which i doubt he is (selective is one thing, tight is another), 97s is not going to be in much harm here getting 5 to 1 with position and one of the players being passive. all sorts of button raising hands belong in the muck here, 97s is not one of them.

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you are neglecting the fact that SB may very well have a capping hand here, and since he never raises, the probability that he is sitting on AA goes up a lot.

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Additionally, not only is the probability way high that the SB has a premium hand, he is said to play passively, so the times your 97 makes two pair/trips/straight/flush, you aren't even going to get excessive action.

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but the converse is more true and very beneficial for us e.g. we won't get punished too severley when we make a second best or when we push draws.

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yeah, but isn't the whole point of getting involved here to make a big hand and win a big pot? implied odds in limit are tough enough to capitalize on as it is. with a passive opponent, we just aren't gonna win that much postflop.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

I only play online, but call my complete range in this setup.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

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Ah, no. I game select very well, thanks. I found this game and didn't even answer the phone when DD called me it was so good. He had to find me in it, then this hand happened. The SB calls with many hands here, 99, A6o, T8o, QTo, but 3-bets premium. I was sure of it.

When this was 2 bets back to me, I thought, "20% cold equity, 22% at best".

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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The description said super loose but passive pre-flop. "Super loose" doesn't indicate to me that you're not going to get action post-flop when you hit good.

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*DING*

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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The description said super loose but passive pre-flop. "Super loose" doesn't indicate to me that you're not going to get action post-flop when you hit good.

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*DING*

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Maybe we need to make some clarifications:

"super loose," to me, means the guy isn't a folder, and calls a lot. A loose player is showdown bound.

If we are saying you will get action if you make a hand, that means he is "aggressive" postflop.

In my mind, getting 1 bet per street postflop (the likely case vs a "loose" opponent) is not excessive action, as we need an "aggressive" opponent for that.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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ppl in general call here too often imo. I fold this and 98s in the situation described.

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yeah, 97s is a pretty straightforward fold. 98s is tougher but i think its a bit more playable since you can raise out SB a lot of the time on the flop. either way i dotn like playing it

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

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Ah, no. I game select very well, thanks. I found this game and didn't even answer the phone when DD called me it was so good. He had to find me in it, then this hand happened. The SB calls with many hands here, 99, A6o, T8o, QTo, but 3-bets premium. I was sure of it.

When this was 2 bets back to me, I thought, "20% cold equity, 22% at best".

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well, given all of this, it is clearly a fold.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

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Ah, no. I game select very well, thanks. I found this game and didn't even answer the phone when DD called me it was so good. He had to find me in it, then this hand happened. The SB calls with many hands here, 99, A6o, T8o, QTo, but 3-bets premium. I was sure of it.

When this was 2 bets back to me, I thought, "20% cold equity, 22% at best".

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If you say so, but I find it really tough to believe. I assume you saw him just call with 99. Big dif obv between 99 and the other hands you listed.

Even so, you're getting 4-1 even if he caps and you have position and play better than him postflop and DD is trapped in the middle which is also good. I'm still calling.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

in the end it comes down to your ability to lay down hands. if the flop comes 9 high and he bet-3bets you on the flop, you should be able to lay down on the river. if you cant then just fold. the extra bets people pay in this situation are unbearbly high

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

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Position here helps a lot. Easy fold for 2-more from the BB, but from the button with a slightly larger pot you have to call. Capping has merits too IMO, but I think I prefer seeing if SB caps it himself so I know where I'm at.

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SB tried to tell you where you were at the first time around.

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Stop it. Joe said the person was passive. Not super duper passive or never ever ever ever raises passive. Dude is sitting in a 4-handed 50-100 limit holdem game. That alone should tell you that he's not the nittiest dude on the block. Even Passive Guy has more than JJ-AA, AK here.

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Ah, no. I game select very well, thanks. I found this game and didn't even answer the phone when DD called me it was so good. He had to find me in it, then this hand happened. The SB calls with many hands here, 99, A6o, T8o, QTo, but 3-bets premium. I was sure of it.

When this was 2 bets back to me, I thought, "20% cold equity, 22% at best".

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If you say so, but I find it really tough to believe. I assume you saw him just call with 99. Big dif obv between 99 and the other hands you listed.

Even so, you're getting 4-1 even if he caps and you have position and play better than him postflop and DD is trapped in the middle which is also good. I'm still calling.

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but DD should not be 'trapped' here, in that he should be aware of SBs tendencies, and thus his 4bet should be a real hand that is more than happy to have joe in there with his 9-high.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

Great. If we have to beat one overpair, what's the difference if it's two.

And DD is plenty capable of knowing Joe will make folds in this spot, gaining him the position and 1BB of dead money in the pot.

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Great. If we have to beat one overpair, what's the difference if it's two.

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With a hand like 44, that's definitely true. With 97s it seems that you flop too many mediocre hands that will still have suckout equity but are going to be put in a tough spot when you're behind two overpairs because of the relative difficult to escape flop/turn unscathed. While this helps your implied odds somewhat it's not like you're going to be a huge favorite to get lots of bets in when ahead, given how infrequently you'll flop a super-strong hand equitywise. I think if the other player is more guaranteed to be more passive postflop here in the SB if you call, then you can get away with a call pretty easily. I call here online all the time but with a 5-bet cap preflop + the relative likelihood that you will be facing multiple bets on the flop, I think I'd find a muck here.

Rob

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

i spoke with gabe about this hand for awhile last night, and he said he felt the best play was definitely raise. he thought all 3 options were pretty close but it goes cap, call, fold.

it's telling that the live players (gabe, me, death donkey, and clarkmeister) all favor not folding and the primarily online players favor folding. actually not sure i should include dd as live player, but i think he's a really good live player.

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

only reason i might fold is cuz deathdonkey runs really good, other wise id call for sure, i once raised pocket 7s and folded for one more bet to his 79s(that he 3-bet my EMP raise with btw, for anyone actually considering folding here) and felt pretty good about it, especially he showed his cards confirming my expert laydown

Re: Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey
 

I think the decision is so close that it merits metagame considerations. If the fish and DD notice that you're folding in the face of this kind of action, then you could be inviting the fish to play back at you even more, which would be a total disaster in a short game where he is playing passively to begin with. You also could be inviting DD to start liberally trying to raise you out of the pot preflop and isolate the fish which would force you into some tougher preflop decisions.

Calling has too many positives for it to be a clear mistake. 1) you have a protected pot v. DD 2) you have the button 3)you're highly unlikely to be dominated 4) you're hand is relatively disguised and you will likley get paid off if you make two pair of better. 5) you could easily be up against two hands that have overlapping overcards and scoop a 9 or 7 high board. 6)you're suited in a multiway pot