Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

In the investment world, one's performance is always compared to the market. Why do we consider the S&P 500 to be the market? Wouldn't the Wilshire 5000 or some other larger index be a better representation of the market since the S&P doesn't include small-caps? I realize that certain funds that invest in specific asset classes compare themselves to the appropriate benchmark indeces. Thanks in advance for the clarification.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

S&P 500 is considered a good benchmark because historically it has beaten over 75% of the other funds out there. You can always find funds that beat it over the short-term, but it is hard to find funds that consistently beat it over the long-term.

A well-educated investor can probably beat it, but for the average joe, it the S&P 500 fund is a great investment.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

The S&P is market cap weighted. The biggest stocks account for most of the market. The other 4500 combined probably isn't close to as much capitalization as the biggest 500.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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The S&P is market cap weighted. The biggest stocks account for most of the market. The other 4500 combined probably isn't close to as much capitalization as the biggest 500.

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yeah 2% of the largest stocks account for 20% of the value and 10% of the stocks for 50%.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

S&P 500 has a 99% correlation with the U.S. Stock Market since 1972(As far back as I have S&P 500 data).

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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S&P 500 has a 99% correlation with the U.S. Stock Market since 1972(As far back as I have S&P 500 data).

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How is the "U.S. Stock Market" defined here and why isn't that used as the benchmark?

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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S&P 500 has a 99% correlation with the U.S. Stock Market since 1972(As far back as I have S&P 500 data).

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How is the "U.S. Stock Market" defined here and why isn't that used as the benchmark?

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a holdover tradition from the days when compiling that much data was much more difficult and time-consuming than today, i would guess.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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S&P 500 has a 99% correlation with the U.S. Stock Market since 1972(As far back as I have S&P 500 data).

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How is the "U.S. Stock Market" defined here and why isn't that used as the benchmark?

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My data on U.S. Stock Market represents >99% of the market capitalization.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

To my knowledge, it's just because it's long-established and popular index.

The S&P 500 is a poor index to benchmark against.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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The S&P 500 is a poor index to benchmark against.

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Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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To my knowledge, it's just because it's long-established and popular index.

The S&P 500 is a poor index to benchmark against.

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i was under the impression the S&P 500 was a selection of 500 (or so) companies that represent all major sectors of the market. they are the main representatives for each and addition to the index represents an acknowledgement of mkt cap size and success in that industry.

i think it is a fine benchmark. why would you disagree??? specifically, what would you benchmark against otherwise?? i think hedge funds (like global macro) shoudl be benchmarked against risk free cash, but equity managers should be benchmarked against the S&P500. what would you suggest if not that?

thanks,
Barron

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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To my knowledge, it's just because it's long-established and popular index.

The S&P 500 is a poor index to benchmark against.

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Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

What no-one has pointed out is that the S&P 500 has been around much longer than any other index other than the Dow. Since it is much broader than the Dow it was the best proxy for "the market" way before the computer age made calculating even bigger indexes easy.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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To my knowledge, it's just because it's long-established and popular index.

The S&P 500 is a poor index to benchmark against.

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What is a better benchmark? The S&P 500 beats 75% of the funds out there.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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To my knowledge, it's just because it's long-established and popular index.

The S&P 500 is a poor index to benchmark against.

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surprised to see you quote this.

can you answer the questions i asked gull?

thanks,
Barron

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

Q: Why is a soda referred to as a "Coke?"
A: Name recognition.

Standard & Poor's is a company. They 'created' a product, which was an index of 500 stocks. Little did they know it would be looked upon as a benchmark 40+(?) years later.

I was asking this myself a couple months ago when s&p started charging me $1/month for real time index data through tradestation.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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I was asking this myself a couple months ago when s&p started charging me $1/month for real time index data through tradestation.

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You folkes have really cheap data and trading costs. The same in the UK would be at least an order of magnitude more expensive. More like $30/month.

A basic 1-way stock trade costs $20 to $30 from an execution-only "discount" broker....and that's not including the 0.5% stamp duty on top of every purchase. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

There were two reasons I said the S&P 500 is a poor benchmark.

First, thanks to computers, it's much easier to benchmark against the total market. Benchmarking against the total market is better because it captures variation not present in large caps. In addition, it's more accurate. Why approximate something that can be known more accurately?

The second reason I called it a bad benchmark is the way companies and people use it. An investor who is actively trading, say foreign stocks, should not pat himself on the back for beating the S&P 500. Instead, he should look at the appropriate index for his market (MSCI EAFE ). Comparing his results against that index should give him a better idea of his performance. The evil thing is that fund companies do this too. For instance, an actively managed emerging markets fund may advertise how it has beaten the S&P 500 every year for the last 5 years. What it fails to tell investors is that their strategy entails more risk, and that they did not outperform a passive but similarly risky index. This practice disgusts me.

By calling benchmarking against the S&P 500 poor, I don't mean to imply that it's never useful. Only that it is often misused.

Re: Why is the S&P 500 considered \"The Market\"?
 

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There were two reasons I said the S&P 500 is a poor benchmark.

First, thanks to computers, it's much easier to benchmark against the total market. Benchmarking against the total market is better because it captures variation not present in large caps. In addition, it's more accurate. Why approximate something that can be known more accurately?

The second reason I called it a bad benchmark is the way companies and people use it. An investor who is actively trading, say foreign stocks, should not pat himself on the back for beating the S&P 500. Instead, he should look at the appropriate index for his market (MSCI EAFE ). Comparing his results against that index should give him a better idea of his performance. The evil thing is that fund companies do this too. For instance, an actively managed emerging markets fund may advertise how it has beaten the S&P 500 every year for the last 5 years. What it fails to tell investors is that their strategy entails more risk, and that they did not outperform a passive but similarly risky index. This practice disgusts me.

By calling benchmarking against the S&P 500 poor, I don't mean to imply that it's never useful. Only that it is often misused.

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taking the 2nd point first, i was thinking you meant bad benchmark period. it isn't a bad benchmark for those for whom the opportunity cost of investing is the S&P (domestic equity managers).

to the first point, that is a good one, but how is a complete market benchmark easy? even with computers, companies go broke regularly and new companies enter the market constantly. there are thousands of companies out there and doing a benchmark for all of them, even with computers is still an enormous operation. further, what gain would you get moving from the S&P500 to the entire market?

i think jeff wrote somewhere that a study was done or he had data that he could track where the S&P500 correlates over 90% to the entire market (99% of hte market cap).

so even if it were easy to benchmark the entire market cap of domestic listed equities, the gain would be minimal and you'd incur more tranaction costs, despite simplicity.

standard & poors has created this index and they already made it easy to get a highly representative group of equities that provide a good benchmark imo.

clearly, an int'l equity manager should be benchmarked vs. the MSCI. but according to the "computers make it easier" theory, why not benchmark vs. the entire mkt cap of the markets that the managers invests in?

computers may make it easier, but they don't necessarily make it a better benchmark for the costs involved (like the MSCI vs. whole market cap and the S&P500 vs. the entire market).

now hedge funds, however, typically don't get benchmarked vs. the S&P500. global macro funds (and for some reason, even long/short equity funds) are benchmarked vs. the prevailing cash rate. the S&P isn't their benchmark so that makes sense.

so again, to clarify, you think that a rational alternative to the S&P500 benchmark for domestic mutual funds is to be the entire market?

thanks,
Barron

PS- the msci example is a good one of false advertisement that you brought IF it is the MSCI emerging market index vs. the MSCI -EAFE which i think is just developed countries. if it is just developed countries, then it is less risky than just domestic equities, even ex-US.