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- - ATs limp EP (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=438737)

JJack

06-29-2007 07:29 AM

ATs limp EP

BU: 16.5/9.5/total AF 1.76/turn AF 3.46 - 550 hands
UGT+1: 18.6/10/total AF 1.67/turn AF 2.0 - 350 hands

0.15/0.30 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 4 folds, BU raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

<ul type="square">I NOW know that i should raise or fold[/list]Flop: (7.47 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BU calls, UTG+1 calls.

<ul type="square">Here should I probably just call down cus dont know power of PFA and flop bettor or even fold cus dont have position, right?[/list]Turn: (6.73 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BU folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

<ul type="square">here probably just call down, cus opponent dont afraid me after flop raise[/list]River: (12.73 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.73 BB

I know that this hand was play probably horrible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

b1grich

06-29-2007 07:39 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

Preflop call is fine, you want a multiway pot with ATs

Flop - call

Turn - fold b/c UTG+1 obv isn't scared of your reraise on the flop and he still comes out betting

River - u called the whole way so you have to call 1 more bet now. Folding would be pointless at this point.

infinity235

06-29-2007 07:43 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

be wary when utg+1 donks into you on the turn. personally, i c all this down after the donkbet unless i have TPTK or better.

flop is fine. river is fine.

Xhad	06-29-2007 08:00 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

[ QUOTE ]
I NOW know that i should raise or fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true.

As played: I don't think the flop raise is bad but button coldcalling followed by the turn donk makes me nervous. I'd call down there.

OziBattler

06-29-2007 08:06 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

I'd raise preflop. UTG 18/10 is probably limping stuff like AxSooted, suited connectors or a pocket pair, maybe LRR AA-KK but I doubt it.

if you cant fold to a 3 bet then just call the turn and river. actually thats what I'd do anyway. call call. you probably raised to drive out button but really your main concern here should be UTG. call and if button raises then he is announcing a big hand. raising probably lets button play correctly and fold except when u r beat.

halpgr

06-29-2007 09:21 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

[ QUOTE ]
I NOW know that i should raise or fold

[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer limp or fold with ATs in early position, more often fold than limp.

Flop raise was OK. Turn raise is bad, what do you put villian on that you're beating, and you have no redraw. I guess you have to call down because you made the pot so big, but with TPGK 3 way I think you want to get it to showdown as cheap as you can on the turn and river.

Oink	06-29-2007 09:32 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

[ QUOTE ]
I NOW know that i should raise or fold

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop call is fine, you want a multiway pot with ATs

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer limp or fold with ATs in early position, more often fold than limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO these generic staements are useless when debating preflop strategy in limit. The optimal choice depends on the tables conditions. If its loose you can call. If it plays tight and you are not sure about the limpers range you can fold. If you think you have eq against the limper and you think you can get it HU with a raise then its an easy raise.

I am not a big fan of the flop raise. If Hero is ahead he wants to fold KQ, KJ and KT. Any other worse hand in buttons range is pointless to shut out as he wouldnt have odds to call and I am not sure that KJs and KTs is in his preflop raising range. KJo and KTo are likely not in his range. Besides I doubt that Hero has much eq against the 18/9 limper but I am not sure as I havent played FR in a while.

The turn raise is terrible IMO. I would call down.

JJack

06-29-2007 09:57 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

Whats mean "eq"?

kevinhav11

06-29-2007 10:30 AM

Re: ATs limp EP

the preflop call is good b/c with 2 suited broadway cards we want multiway action.

the flop raise is good b/c we have a marginal hand and want to make it undesireable for BU to draw. Of course hes a donk and this is SSHE so he does anyway. Good raise.

Turn, at this point when he leads out in spite of your flop raise i call down

Niediam

06-29-2007 04:24 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

Fodling ATs preflop for one bet is bad at any table I have ever played.

I just call down from the turn donk.

tyler_cracker

06-29-2007 04:53 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

i really can't believe people are advocating folding preflop. i am only slightly less preplexed that people would advocate limping. ATs is a good hand that plays well short-handed or multiway. raise raise raise for value.

pokerkasper

06-29-2007 05:44 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

Preflop limp is OK. You want another 2 or more callers and you are strong enough to call if its 2-betted. I would raise ATs for value in MP or later or short-handed. In EP ATs is at best for raising purposes a borderline hand. At loose passive tables you might reduce value by raising. At some tight tables you might gain value by raising.

Button raised. He might have a good pocket pair or good offsuited highcards. If he is a tough player he raised with A8s, K10s, QJs or higher. If he is loose, aggressive he raised his position rather than his cards.

utg+1 and you called. UTG+1 probably has a medium pp, AJ, KQ, or A10s like you. If he is loose he might have lower cards. If he has not seen action for a while, there is also a slim chance he is slowplaying a monster.

---- Flop ---
UTG1 bets. He probably has an ace. If so your AT is a marginal hand, because you have probably no better kicker. The board is dangerous due to the two clubs. I think raising is correct. You have to protect your hand here, hoping to play it heads-up. Button calls cold. He probably has a Monster like QQ or a kind of drawing hands like clubs. Or he is overplaying KQ which is common in Micro-limit.
UTG1 calls.

---- Turn ---
UTG1 bets. Alert. Now i´m sure he has something like AJ or ATs. I don´t like to battle it out, with the expectation to lose to AJ or to split the pot. Also i dislike the position between the 2 opponents. I wouldn´t raise here and simple call in the hope to catch him with a loose AXs. If Button raises i´m probably beaten with an 3-outer. Clear fold.
If Button calls. I would c/c it down on the river.

After the raise UTG1 reraises. Now again i´m probably beaten now or when a club comes on the river. After the Button folds, UTG1 might be convinced he has a good ace or he played something like pocket eights agressively on the flop. If he is a tight player you might have a fold here. If you think he is somewhat loose and bet/raise any top pair regardless his kicker. Call him down.

Gap23Razor

06-29-2007 06:48 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

KitCloudkicker

06-29-2007 06:50 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer limp or fold with ATs in early position, more often fold than limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, if you are just starting out at poker (i.e. have been playing for only a few months) you are probably better served not playing ATs from EP or even MP. It can be difficult to play postflop.

However, for experienced players, folding this preflop for one bet is quite bad.

When I started playing, I folded this always from the first 3 seats. As I gained more experience, I began to either raise or limp it, based on variables like table conditions, table image, etc.

Shillx

06-29-2007 07:05 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

UTG has a set of twos. Don't fold PF. I don't really get the turn raise either.

Gap23Razor

06-29-2007 07:13 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

[ QUOTE ]
BU: 16.5/9.5/total AF 1.76/turn AF 3.46 - 550 hands
UGT+1: 18.6/10/total AF 1.67/turn AF 2.0 - 350 hands

0.15/0.30 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 4 folds, BU raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.47 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BU calls, UTG+1 calls.

<ul type="square">Here should I probably just call down cus dont know power of PFA and flop bettor or even fold cus dont have position, right?[/list]

[/ QUOTE ]

i like the raise on the flop...i don't know if could have thought of that in the heat of battle...but given how UTG+1 has played the hand so far, you could well be ahead...if he has an Ace only AJo is the only hand i can see him beating you with given how he has played (i would think his stats say is he is knowledgible about starting hands, so no AA, QQ, KK, AK, AQ in his hand is likely)maybe 22's here, or A2s in another suit, but a good bet to figure out where you stand plus your raise may to knock out Button...

but we don't have much of an idea what BU & UTG+1 think of you..you did not provide your stats, only theirs...also, your limp on preflop then betting looks like flush draw semi-bluff, or 2 suited cards in you hand that caught a piece of the flop, or KQ of clubs etc...BB would be a little confused/suspect right now and probably willing to go another street; nice bet though and good try to push out BU i think...

Gap23Razor

06-29-2007 07:37 PM

Re: ATs limp EP

[ QUOTE ]
BU: 16.5/9.5/total AF 1.76/turn AF 3.46 - 550 hands
UGT+1: 18.6/10/total AF 1.67/turn AF 2.0 - 350 hands

0.15/0.30 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.7 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, 4 folds, BU raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.47 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BU calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.73 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, BU folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

<ul type="square">here probably just call down, cus opponent dont afraid me after flop raise[/list]

[/ QUOTE ]

i think call down is right here...UTG+1, assuming he is playing ABC, has A2, A8, AT, or AJ...with A2 you have Q,8 to counterfeit and T to outdraw, 9 outs...A8 you have 3 to counterfeit 3 to out draw, 6 outs which may be a little thin but i think you have pot odds...AT you split; AJ has you beat...all that assumes UTG+1 is playing ABC, not slowplaying AA or AK nor semi-bluffing with middle pair or lower...BU has shown no strength, don't know if he would drop if he only had to call one--(if he is on a flush draw in clubs we don't have as many outs)

anyway, thanks for putting up the hand for us to chew up...based on the care you put into posting this hand i would think you have the traits needed to develop yourself into a good player...

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