Awkward hand means awkward river
 

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.25. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (6.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (10.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero ?????

CO may be betting anything. He is erratic, he is 56/0/.75 after 39 hands and his passive post flop stat doesn't mean he is betting a legitimate hand. He will usually bet if checked to. The other players were new at the table. No read. No stats at the time of the hand.

What do I do with this river? Bet it and fold to a raise? Check it and c/r if CO bets when checked to? Or check call it? Or do I bet/call? I think I have a better hand than CO does but I'm afraid of the passive players, one of whom may have hit a better flush. What do you do?

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

I'm donking and calling if it's one back. If it's two more, I'm looking to fold.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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I'm donking and calling if it's one back. If it's two more, I'm looking to fold.

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Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

I has a flush I bet

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lol @ looking to fold

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

I would check.

If you donk-bet here you run the risk that the only caller you`ll get will be a (higher) flush. Some pairs or two pairs KT or T9 might call you. But you give them the extra chance to fold the made hand. By checking you give them a chance to bet a hand despite the flush-danger on board. My experience is that in micro-limits players are tempting to bet this hands here especially in LP but they rather fold if you bet first. So if someone has a hand you have a good chance to check-raise, which i wouldn`t recomend here especially if the bet doesn´t come from the CO (or CO-1). With 4 other players you might run into a higher flush.

If no one has a hand you lose nothing by checking. So my estimation is you make more profit here by checking the flush.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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I would check.

If you donk-bet here you run the risk that the only caller you`ll get will be a (higher) flush. Some pairs or two pairs KT or T9 might call you. But you give them the extra chance to fold the made hand. By checking you give them a chance to bet a hand despite the flush-danger on board. My experience is that in micro-limits players are tempting to bet this hands here especially in LP but they rather fold if you bet first. So if someone has a hand you have a good chance to check-raise, which i wouldn`t recomend here especially if the bet doesn´t come from the CO (or CO-1). With 4 other players you might run into a higher flush.

If no one has a hand you lose nothing by checking. So my estimation is you make more profit here by checking the flush.

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no one is folding two pair.

people hardly ever fold top pair.

lol at checking b/c "no one will call". you ever play poker before dude?

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

woot. Hello valuetown! hero makes his hand on the river so hero bets and expects to be paid off by a surprising number of hands. Our objective here is to get as many bets from weaker hands rather that to blow them out of the water. bet &gt; CR.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

O M G!

there is never a

"no one is folding two pair.
people hardly ever fold top pair."

simply don´t give them the extra-chance to make good decisions, but give them any chance to make bad decisions and probably some extra money for you.

As for you: I am the guy who fold two pair or top pair on the river depending on my pair(s), the board, the number of players and the betting patterns. 5+ players and clear draws out is a clear fold. You need about 19-1 to call for a bluff on the river.

But i´m glad about every sucker who call my flushes here.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

I'm leading this flop because I want 6 people putting in monies. I'm betting the river because I made the hand I wanted to make. There be Variance thar! But really, flush over isn't that common.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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But really, flush over isn't that common.

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True as this is, it'd be a lot more likely here than in most other hands. We have the second worst possible flush (since we hold 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] the only flush that can be worse given this board is 53[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) and there's four other people who were hanging around until this point for some reason.

Given that, I don't think check/call is terrible here.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

wow march, wow

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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wow march, wow

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We're gonna lose to a better flush a good % of the time. That said I would still bet.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

Gyus. Everyone knows, in general it´s necessary to bet for value on the river. All i´m saying is. Sometimes in LH, especially Small and Micro there might be exceptions depending on several factors, which make a check more profitable. Unfortunatly or fortunatly those exceptions are not discussed in the Poker-Theorie for the sake of simplification, which is OK. IMO the hand above is such an exception. It´s that Hero is first to bet against 4 players. Given a lot of players in those limits are like the CO-player here, you might get added value by checking the river. Simply give them a chance to make a move or value bet into you. If they don´t have a hand to bet this flop, the have no hand to call your bet. So you lose nothing. But if they have a hand strong enough to call a possible flush, they have a hand strong enough to bet and you may extract extra money by simply check-raise. Its all about your relative position the number of players on the river. This dont work by less than 4 or 5 players. Also the small flush may be an extra factor to check here. No question, against 2 players you bet this micro-flush. But here with 5 players hanging around on a textured board in microlimits it´s not unlikely you will be surprised by a nut-flush.

Neverless you might auto-play this hand by betting and i might be completely wrong. I simply like to take my freedom and think about this hand.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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Given a lot of players in those limits are like the CO-player here

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I disagree with this.



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IMO the hand above is such an exception.

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Why do you think that? You have a guy who posted UTG plus another poster and the one guy who we have stats on is certified as erratic.

Im all for considering the exceptions and whilst it is possible that we were drawing to a worse flush here there will also be times when our opponents surprise us cos they dont play like we do.......I suppose you could "check and see"...ie check and see who bets and plan a CR if someone right after you bets but personally I prefer to bet/call rather than CR because being 3 bet would really suck here.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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. Simply give them a chance to make a move or value bet into you. If they don´t have a hand to bet this flop, the have no hand to call your bet. So you lose nothing.

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i've been playing poker for 2 years, and this happens so frequently that i can tell what will happen before it happens. if you check, two pair will likely check, top pair will check, and you GET NOTHING!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY SIR!!

if you bet, two pair wont like it but HE'LL CALL ANYWAY, and really bad players (that frequent these games) will still call with top pair. Hell, I'd still definitely call with two pair if i dont have a read on a guy and i'd be happy to do so.

if you check here and two bad players check that would have called, which on this type of board is very probable, you just missed out on two BB's for no reason at all. stop thinking that you can only bet the river with the nuts; you'll be missing on tons of potential profitability.

if you find that people are auto-folding to your bets whenever a potential draw hits and thus making them have no value- heres some news for you - you arent betting enough.

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We're gonna lose to a better flush a good % of the time. That said I would still bet.

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Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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We're gonna lose to a better flush a good % of the time. That said I would still bet.

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Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

If you want to talk seriously about poker cool down and stop any kind of aggressions in your postings. I know exactly what you mean, i know the standard play and i need not any advice.

Calling a bet here with any pair, two pair or trips is really weak. In this spot you are only about 5% to catch a bluff. Not enough to call multiway. OK there are a lot of weak players out calling this. I know it and i like it. The nice thing is, there are a lot of players out there in these limits betting into your flush too. Weak play. My stats say about 7% of the 5+ply river-hands are checked through here. In 1/2 to .25/.50 and 5+ players still in, it happens f.i. frequently that i`m sitting with a flush there and a east-european or scandinavian fires out after 2 player checked with a straight, trips or even two pairs. Thats why i thought why not checking here with a flush first to bet? And i have good results with this play. There are rare situations with hands higher than pair checking through behind me in this limit without tight players. The value i lose here is outweighted by the surprise action i get after my check, when one of the last 2 players to act bets.

I would still bet here with a nut flush. Here i get my extra money from weak players who raise with a slightly weaker flush on the river and from value-betting the turn.

If you are not first to bet here, than its wright to bet for value. Also if they ALL are passive and the river is often checked i would auto-bet it out here.

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and:
"if you find that people are auto-folding to your bets whenever a potential draw hits and thus making them have no value- heres some news for you - you arent betting enough."

Here are some news for you. People in these limits don´t care much about betting patterns. And it doesn´t matter much if you bet "enough" or not. A bet in this spot alerts a flush for sure. Anyone who wants to call here knows he has to deal with a sure flush. If anyone is betting "enough" by bluff betting here s/he lose money.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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If you want to talk seriously about poker cool down and stop any kind of aggressions in your postings.

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lol obv you havent seen charlie and the chocolate factory [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] its a joke man.

ok you've made your point, i've made mine. i assume you're crushing your game as i'm crushing mine...so if we're both playing optimally then lets drop it. no sense arguing any more.

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Calling a bet here with any pair, two pair or trips is really weak. In this spot you are only about 5% to catch a bluff. Not enough to call multiway. OK there are a lot of weak players out calling this. I know it and i like it. The nice thing is, there are a lot of players out there in these limits betting into your flush too. Weak play.

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Define "weak".

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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lol @ looking to fold

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Calling a raise and a reraise is a huge leak imo. Hell I'm sick about it all against just a single raise. Flush over flush (using both cards) is quite common. About 24% of the time if all suited hands see the flop. And people love suited hands at these limits so I wouldn't expect the number to be too much lower.

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We're gonna lose to a better flush a good % of the time that we're raised.. That said I would still bet.

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They'll call with lots (and lots) of lesser hands.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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Define "weak".

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negative expected value

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

Anyone betting the flop for value here?

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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Anyone betting the flop for value here?

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no way, the likelihood of an EP raise is too high which would cut down on our odds.

it also is a bad thing if an EP raise would drive out a gutshot that hits while we make our flush. e.g. a great card might be the Js.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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Define "weak".

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negative expected value

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...

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The nice thing is, there are a lot of players out there in these limits betting into your flush too. Weak play.

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Value betting with a strong non-flush hand when checked to on the river flush card is a +EV play because you get paid off by a whole lot of worse hands which more than makes up for the times you lose to a flush. Most of the players calling along will pay off one more bet to see your hand. Checking is "weak" relative to value betting.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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Value betting with a strong non-flush hand when checked to on the river flush card is a +EV play because you get paid off by a whole lot of worse hands which more than makes up for the times you lose to a flush. Most of the players calling along will pay off one more bet to see your hand. Checking is "weak" relative to value betting.

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i know. nothing new.

it works in higher limits. but on these limits here with 5+ players on the river, in 95% you meet the flush for sure. In lower limits players tend to play suited cards more often and to hang around with them than in medium or higher limits for which value-betting on the river has been originally designed. So you need about 10% pot equity to justify a bet in exactly this spot here. You have only 5%, perhaps less. If you bet despite this for value your +EV exist only in your holdem books and the -EV in your real poker life.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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Anyone betting the flop for value here?

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no way, the likelihood of an EP raise is too high which would cut down on our odds.

it also is a bad thing if an EP raise would drive out a gutshot that hits while we make our flush. e.g. a great card might be the Js.



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I see your point.

Although as always it depends a bit on the other players. If you are playing with a bunch of passive calling stations who rarely raise but always call then this is less of a concern. A 0.25/0.50 game with 6 out of 8 players on the flop sounds pretty fishy but obviously that is just one data point.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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it works in higher limits. but on these limits here with 5+ players on the river, in 95% you meet the flush for sure.

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If people are bad enough to call with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] preflop then they are bad enough to get here with a lot of things that are not flushes and then pay off with them. You're very backwards in your thinking here.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

You also have to consider that the R tards who are get involved with any 2 suited cards, have only a 1/4th chance of being our suit. (Less if you consider that the board cards and our cards hurt their chances). Then they stick around with the T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and their bottom pair because zomg we're totally bluffing and still pay you off on the river. I'm convinced some players don't even think that far.

This made me laugh inside:
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If you bet despite this for value your +EV exist only in your holdem books and the -EV in your real poker life.

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Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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i've been playing poker for 2 years, and this happens so frequently that i can tell what will happen before it happens. if you check, two pair will likely check, top pair will check, and you GET NOTHING!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY SIR!!


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http://wiki.ytmnd.com/images/thumb/1...200px-Lose.jpg

haha sorry to hijack

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

bet the river
i would seriously try to cap the river.. im serious..
people will play 2 pair on the way to the cap

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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it works in higher limits. but on these limits here with 5+ players on the river, in 95% you meet the flush for sure.

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If people are bad enough to call with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] preflop then they are bad enough to get here with a lot of things that are not flushes and then pay off with them. You're very backwards in your thinking here.

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They do not pay off your strong non-flush card, but the guy holding the flush. again 5+ on a 3-flush board is to much to justify a call imo. The rare cases you win the pot do not compensate your losses. You need less players to value bet here profitable.

By the way i think you mean more limits like .05/.10 or .02/.04 or so. The hand posted is .25/.50 and in this limit at PP and PS people become more and more tougher and educated. They are more able to release poor hands and there are more aggressive and tight players. All factors are not favorable for Value Betting the River with scare cards. Value Betting is no auto-play. You need favorable conditions to make it a profitable play. And these are loose passive games, no aggressive bettor or raiser at the table. This becomes rare today at .25/.50.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

kasper: I think you're giving your opponents too much credit, this coming from someone who has played more $5/$10 than .5/$1. Also, if you're that afraid of flush-over-flush then I don't know why you're agreeing with getting to the river in the first place. Checking and folding for one bet is ridiculous but checking and calling pretty much just lets people bet flushes but check pairs for little gain. It would be nice if we were on the button so we could see what everyone does first but we're not, sucks to be OOP. It is true that there is an unusually high chance of flush-over-flush here but not enough to swing a bet into a check. Again if we were up against a higher flush THAT often we have no business in this pot.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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bet the river
i would seriously try to cap the river.. im serious..
people will play 2 pair on the way to the cap

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People who constantly overplay good hands make for the best opponents. Way better then loose-passive types.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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it works in higher limits.

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In "higher limits" (which I'm supposing means tighter and more aggressive), I don't think the action comes out this way *EVER*.

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but on these limits here with 5+ players on the river, in 95% you meet the flush for sure.

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95% for sure?

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In lower limits players tend to play suited cards more often and to hang around with them than in medium or higher limits for which value-betting on the river has been originally designed.

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Uhhhhhh... value-betting on the river is designed for any game where players will call with weaker hands. It happens at all limits.

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So you need about 10% pot equity to justify a bet in exactly this spot here. You have only 5%, perhaps less.

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Eh? Pot equity doesn't really apply when you're discussing completed hands. This statement makes no sense at all. Perhaps your vocabulary is different, and you are using "pot equity" to mean something different than what everybody else means, just like you used "weak" differently.

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If you bet despite this for value your +EV exist only in your holdem books and the -EV in your real poker life.

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This is a good NC thread title. Too early?

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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bet the river
i would seriously try to cap the river.. im serious..
people will play 2 pair on the way to the cap

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People who constantly overplay good hands make for the best opponents. Way better then loose-passive types.

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QFMFingT

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

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it works in higher limits. but on these limits here with 5+ players on the river, in 95% you meet the flush for sure.

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While people may have been hanging around the pot because of spade draws, K9x is a flop that hits a lot of hands that people may limp with. There could easily be several pairs out there, with potentially some straights (the river completed two of them) that people may pay off with, but not necessarily bet with. I'd rather bet and get value from these hands and worry about a potential higher flush if/when I get raised.

Re: Awkward hand means awkward river
 

if you don't bet this river, then you should have folded on the flop.