BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

dboy:*Hey Jimmy, what are you up to?*
Little Jimmy:*Playing HU sngs LDO.*
d:*Whoa there Jimmy, thats a $33+$1.50*
lj:*Yeah I know can beat this level!*
d:*That's great Jimmy, but you're BR is only $53.72*
lj:*Omg hacker. Well what level should I play?*
d:*Let's take a look at some options.*

So you want to build a roll playing HU sngs?

BR management is absolutely key. Consider using one of the following BR management rulesets.

Option #1

Best Option if:
You can't stand or would prefer not to have to move down levels.
You like to have a very padded roll to feel comfortable playing.
Losing a decent portion of your BR tilts you.
You are still learning how to own HUSNGs and you aren't quite comfortable playing them yet.

BR:$30 - $99
Play $2s
BR:$100 - $199
Play $5s
BR:$200 - $399
Play $10s
BR:$400 - $599
Play $20s
BR:$600 - $999
Play $30s
BR:$1000 - $2499
Play $50s
BR:$2500+
Play $100s


Option #2

Best Option if:
You are fine with having to move down.
You want to move up the ranks semi-quickly.

BR:$20 - $49
Play $2s
BR:$50 - $99
Play $5s
BR:$100 - $199
Play $10s
BR:$200 - $299
Play $20s
BR:$300 - $499
Play $30s
BR:$500 - $999
Play $50s
BR:$1000+
Play $100s


Option #3

Best Option if
You are comfortable playing and adjusting to any stakes and player.
You are or have good reason to believe you are a solid winner. (Think 63%+ winrate here)
You have very minimal tilt issues.
You want to take on a bit more risk and build a roll quickly.
You are ok with having to redeposit if you bust early on.

BR:$10 - $24
Play $2s
BR:$25 - $49
Play $5s
BR:$50 - $99
Play $10s
BR:$100 - $149
Play $20s
BR:$150 - $249
Play $30s
BR:$250 - $499
Play $50s
BR:$500+
Play $100s

Beware of option 3. A 15 buyin downswing (although rare) will knock you down through 3 levels. But something else to consider is that if you believe yourself to be +EV at the 100s, then it might be +EV to sacrifice a little risk of ruin in order to get up to that level. There is an opportunity cost of sticking around at the lower levels for a long time.

So that is something to think about. I like option 2 and think it is a nice balance. I have used option 2 to build a roll from the 5s up to the 50s twice with no problems. Option 3 definitely has some gamble in it, but the reward to the +EV player is definitely worth the risk. That said, if you can't redeposit you should not consider option 3.

Option 1 is more for helping a player who is more prone to tilt. It causes less dramatic BR swings and should keep you more cool in your sessions. It will definitely take longer to reach the higher buyin games, but if you are highly prone to tilt it may be the best option for you.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

o rly?

tl;dr

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

thanks very much for the post.

If I start playing HUSNGs I'll certainly be following this advice (probably a mixture of option 1 while i get used to them then option two).

I'll probably wait for cwar's SNG guide first...

Could you explain briefly how you got the numbers? did you use a kelly criterion type thing for option 3?

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

oh, and if there was a sticky, obviously this should be in it!

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

I manage my BR this way:

BR: Limit:
$ 0- 5+0,25
$ 100- 10+0,5
$ 420- 20+1
$ 500- 22+1
$ 700- 30+1,5
$ 850- 33+1,5
$ 1400- 50+2,5
$ 1700- 55+2,5

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

My way: $5k -> $50, $10k -> $100. Maybe I'm bankroll nit?

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

what about nl cash??

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

what stakes do you play and how many games have you played lifetime

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

im a nl 50 6max reg....my roll is about ~1.9-2k and i was just wondering when its safe to play nl 100 HU cause ive always wanted to try it

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

You can take a shot to $100 but be prepared to drop back to $50 if things don't go well.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

yeah....how many buyins should i have for that to be my game?

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

20 is a minimum standard.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

But that is for winning players. He is probably not a winning HU Cash player ATM

Edit: Dboy, you might want to add something about ROI vs. ROR

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Oh sry, I overlooked the HU part. Play $50 HU first with your current roll and move up to $100 when you have at least 30-40 buy ins and you're comfortable.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

lol ftp doesnt have $50 hu [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

IMO option 1 isn't conservative enough for new or losing players.

I would do something like 30 buyins before taking a shot if you're new and not yet comfortable with all aspects of HUSNGs and move down when you're at 20 buyins for that level.

So for example, you are a 5 dollar player and have 200 dollars. When you get to 300, play 10s, if you drop to 200 play 5 again, that gives you 40 buyins to just focus on your game and not worry about going broke.

Learn as much as you can in 5s and 10s, don't worry so much about moving up to 20s and 33s because once you've become a solid player you'll move up incredibly fast and the real money is made at the 55s+, so learn while it's cheap.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

chicago ry who is your avatar....a lot of people seem to have a pic of that guy and iono who that is

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Ive always recommended having 50+ buyins at the 50s or higher, personal preference but if your planning on playing longterm its the safest seeing as I have had 17 buyin downswings.

EDIT: Also if you are playing for a living I think you should add in a much higher comfort zone say 70-100 buyins.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol ftp doesnt have $50 hu [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

World Poker Exchange has $50NL HU and NO RAKE, which makes a huge difference. If you're new to heads up, PM me when you get there and I'll show you the ropes.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

I think they key point is to have a bankroll big enough so that it doesnt affect your play, there have been times Ive been comfortable playing on a 10 buyin roll and sometimes when 50 wasnt enough for me to feel comfortable.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
what about nl cash??

[/ QUOTE ]

NL Cash is extremely volatile.

If you are recreational, I advise 30 buy-ins+ per level. If you are pro, you are a dolt if you have anything less than 50.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Mega-nit!

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mega-nit!

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you not seen my graph? I have a decent winrate and have had a 20 BI downer in 50k hands.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Sorry, this forum is confusing to follow the threads sometimes. I was replying to Kharlog's post with his recommendation of $5k for $50's and $10k for 100's.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, this forum is confusing to follow the threads sometimes. I was replying to Kharlog's post with his recommendation of $5k for $50's and $10k for 100's.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think thats a very reasonable bankroll especially if your playing for a living.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

If you're playing for a living you should be able to drop down if you start losing. Having 100 buyins is not necessary if your skill level is high. If you're around 56% or so and professional at the 55s you should probably drop down to 33s to work on some stuff or game select your ass off so your winrate goes up.

And if your winrate is 60% or higher your variance will not be that high. 17 buyins at the 110s would be about 2k. Having 5k in your br should be plenty if you have the mentality to handle a downswing. Also note a 17 buyin downswing for somebody like cwar should not be all that common, that is a rarity for most winning players, let alone solid winners.

Also, personally there are times when playing that I could handle a 17 buyin downswing. Other times I know I could not. I would move down a level or two and then move back up when I am emotionally ready, thus requiring less buyins.

It just seems 100 is way too high as a general advice for buyins, professional or otherwise.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Hmm its very strange for me to hear ppl saying that you can have too big a bankroll for the level that just seems silly to me. If you are playing professionally I dont you ever want to be in a spot where dropping 20% of your bankroll is an expected event. And if you play a lot of HU sngs I guarantee this will happen to you sometime in your next 10k matches. But I will modify my opinion, I dont think you necessarily need 100 buyins for the level your at (although I can in no way see this hurting you) but I think you need 100 buyins for the lowest level you can make your living at.

I think a lot of the advice is very impatient in this thread, think about your long term plans is spending another month at a lower limit really that bad? I plan on being here for another 5 years at least, a month is a drop in the bucket however if you play too aggressively for your bankroll and psychological comfort you could easily cost yourself several months in the time it costs to rebuild and in the long run that could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. Goal number one is to always protect your bankroll, after that, then you can worry about trying to make the most money.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

I should add that if you are a losing player, no BR management can help you, you will bust. If you are a barely winning player variance is going to be crazy for you and you should definitely have at least 35 buyins if your winrate is 53%.

Also I really wish I knew how to calculate ROR including moving down. I'm sure it is low if you move down as that allows for the loss of many more buyins than not moving down.

Number 1 priority for new HU sng players is to become a solid player. If you are new, you shouldn't focus on trying to move up. You should play at a level where you are comfortable losing many many buyins.

all that said there are a few things I would like to add to the OP and perhaps you guys can suggest some numbers.

minimum winrate% for each option.

i'm thinking,

option 1: 55% (and get better before getting to the 20s+)
option 2: 58% (get better before trying 50s)
option 3: 63%

those are just estimates to get you to a fairly safe ROR%.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm its very strange for me to hear ppl saying that you can have too big a bankroll for the level that just seems silly to me. If you are playing professionally I dont you ever want to be in a spot where dropping 20% of your bankroll is an expected event. And if you play a lot of HU sngs I guarantee this will happen to you sometime in your next 10k matches. But I will modify my opinion, I dont think you necessarily need 100 buyins for the level your at (although I can in no way see this hurting you) but I think you need 100 buyins for the lowest level you can make your living at.

I think a lot of the advice is very impatient in this thread, think about your long term plans is spending another month at a lower limit really that bad? I plan on being here for another 5 years at least, a month is a drop in the bucket however if you play too aggressively for your bankroll and psychological comfort you could easily cost yourself several months in the time it costs to rebuild and in the long run that could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. Goal number one is to always protect your bankroll, after that, then you can worry about trying to make the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really about personal preference and utility. If you have other sources of income and winning $10/hour doesn't mean much to you, but you are great at HU sngs, option 3 might be the best for you.

If you have no other source of income and can live off of $10/hour than you shouldn't risk busting with option 3. You might play somewhere between #2 and #1.

Psychological comfort is also an important consideration when choosing a BR management ruleset. If losing and moving down affects your psyche poorly then you need to have a lot of buyins in your BR.

Being a professional entails getting your ROR as low as you possibly can. But you can still move up fairly aggressively if you are also willing to move down aggressively. A lot of people can't handle that so they should play conservatively.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm its very strange for me to hear ppl saying that you can have too big a bankroll for the level that just seems silly to me. If you are playing professionally I dont you ever want to be in a spot where dropping 20% of your bankroll is an expected event. And if you play a lot of HU sngs I guarantee this will happen to you sometime in your next 10k matches. But I will modify my opinion, I dont think you necessarily need 100 buyins for the level your at (although I can in no way see this hurting you) but I think you need 100 buyins for the lowest level you can make your living at.

I think a lot of the advice is very impatient in this thread, think about your long term plans is spending another month at a lower limit really that bad? I plan on being here for another 5 years at least, a month is a drop in the bucket however if you play too aggressively for your bankroll and psychological comfort you could easily cost yourself several months in the time it costs to rebuild and in the long run that could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. Goal number one is to always protect your bankroll, after that, then you can worry about trying to make the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that it is bad to have 100 buyins, but if you are a 63% winner at say the 55s, there is no reason not to move up to the 110s with 40 buyins, even less. You should not be playing 55s with 5k if you are winning 63% of your games IMO because you are losing so much money by not moving up to 110s where your winrate should be 60%.

The variance of that winrate should not be major at all.

Losing 20% should be a relatively rare thing for a winner of that caliber, so rare in fact that a professional player with a winrate that high should probably be able to overlook it or by the end of this downswing should have gained the mental capacity to stand the swings.

HUSNG is the lowest for of variance in NL (I believe). I would even go as far to say most internet pros in other forms of NL have moved up a lot more aggressively, probably even closer in line with Dboy's BR guidelines than mine. This is comparatively speaking of course, as most internet pros did not make their bread and butter through HUSNG.

Just some thoughts of mine on br management, it's not bad to be conservative, it is certainly better to be too conservative than too aggressive, but I think having a good balance of being able to drop down and building up a tough mental state as you climb the ranks is very important and the most profitable and efficient way to make the most and learn the most for everybody.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

btw if anyone tries option 3 let me know how you manage.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

please let me know what poer room are you using with sthat strategy

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw if anyone tries option 3 let me know how you manage.

[/ QUOTE ]

guilty.

will post more, otherwise see the whiny crap I am posting in low content.

yes the 15 downswing happened. ouch!

Variance definitely plays a huge role in this. I am about 63% at the fives, but I am running bad at the 10's, 11's, and 20's. The roll goes up, and what goes up must come down. I don't think it is all that effective over-all.

The reason is that once you have a decent rush, you are jumping up, and variance seems to dictate that a losing streak will happen near after.

I think I am going to change over to option #2.

ciao.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

[ QUOTE ]
please let me know what poer room are you using with sthat strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

It dosen't really matter what poker room you are using. You can use these bankroll guidelines no matter what site you play on [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars are two poker rooms I know of (I'm sure there are many others) that offers HU SNG's with only 5% rake instead of 10%.

Hope that answered your question somehow ^^

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

One thing to note is the variance of different structures.

For example, you should have less variance in a regular speed HUSNG compared to a turbo on stars.

On FTP you should probably have a bit more variance in their turbos compared to PS turbos because the structure is faster.

Also note that several factors can negate this, such as you being really really good at fast games but being really bad at regular speeds. It's fairly rare to have a higher or near the same ROI in a turbo as in a regular speed, but it happens.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Can you move down? Can you stick to your plan and drop down if you start losing? If you are able to do this then you're able to operate with a much smaller bankroll.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

Yes, moving up and down is def a part of options two and three. After 250 games of doing #3, I am finding that option it is to unstable to realistically expect to move up.

Also, what CR said.

Even if variance is not wider, and you can maintain a 30%+ ROI up through $50 SNGs, the hit of 7 losses is devastating to the bankroll. I find I run into this patch about once every 30 games or so. Example. At 100, I lose 50, have to drop down to the fives. Lose two more, now stuck with 40. It is going to take me more than 7 games to return to 100. The problem is that once I return to 100, I am supposed to play at 20. Add another 7 BR insta-drop, and I am back at where I started, and maybe even lower. Not good for the mentality. It was an interesting experiment. Maybe someone who is able to crush the 100's would have better success at this than I am having.

The odd thing about poker is that the adventurous ones never get to move up, and the patient ones move up faster. I am unfortunately, an adventurous type, so #3 fits my personality perfectly. The poker gods don't care about personality types.

On to option #2.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

ummm... plz show me some stats of someone holding a 30%+ ROI at the 33s over like... 300-500 matches, I would be very impressed [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

That's exactly to problem AA. (i DO see the smiley)

That option #3 fails because you cannot maintain that ROI all through the levels. More specifically, If you can have that ROI at a smaller stake, you will not be guaranteed that ROI two levels up. So #3 falls flat on it's face for that reason. Note, that the OP does point out that you need to maintain a 63% WR for the whole thing to be effective.

Re: BR Management and You (NLTRN)
 

You don't have to maintain a 63% WR for an aggressive bankroll strategy to be effective.

58% is enough that you're leaving tons of money on the table if you wait too long to move up, and high enough that there's a fairly low risk of ruin even playing as little as 7 buyins. (I think 5 is too low unless you're *positive* that you're a solid winner at the level)

Option 3 doesn't fail because you can't maintain 30% ROI. It doesn't fail at all, unless you very quickly hit a buyin level where you're not actually a winning player, and I don't really view that as failure, since you get more games in at that level more quickly with the more agressive strategy. It just leaves you moving up and down a lot more than the other options.

But no matter what your winrate is, waiting for too many buyins before moving up is leaving *tons* of value on the table. Of course, lower winrates will leave you with a bigger risk of ruin, but you really don't need 63% to be safe. Well, maybe you do need 63% to play 5 buyins, but 58% is good enough for 7-8.