B/F on River .... why?
 

I see that a lot of guys tell people to bet/fold on the river. Why not just check/call on the river if your unsure. That way you can use the same amount of money to see the other guys hand.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

the simple answer is lots of the time if you bet a guy will call you with a worse hand and raise you with a better hand, so you get more value from your winning hands and you know when you're beat. obviously it depends on the opponent and if you do it a lot, and other factors too. checkcalling lets him check behind weaker hands that he might call a bet with.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

obviously there are times when you want to checkcall as well

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

like if the guy likes to bluff a lot or on scare cards

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

There's BBB failing to use that edit button again [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

His answers, however, are correct of course.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

Because 2+2 = bet/fold

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

b1, believe me...it takes dicipline to bet fold. I Think alot of people 'master' the bet/call before they eventually clue into the fact that there are very few people who are raising them with a bluff.

bet/fold works best against predictable players. check/call works better against players who will bluff the river when checked to but wont call unless that have something decent. of course, these are generalisations and at often 'depends'.

heres another take on it...whilst you may see a few 'bet/fold' recommendations it doesnt mean that OP is often forced to fold. In such cases the times hero gets raised is much less than the times times when hero gets flat called and wins. hence +EV

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

Thanks for all of your advice. I'm starting to comprehend this. Although it prob. looks simple to you, I'm just starting out with limit holdem and grasping these concepts will take time.

Thanks Again.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

It is on the fancier side in a way. Because really your options are simple. Raise, call, fold or at times, bet or check. Then you can mix them together in fancy combos like the C/R and B/F and less obvious plays are opened up. There are others of course too, but less common.

The B/F is counter-intuitive, like a lot of good poker is. The Check-raise makes sense. You set the trap, they spring it and bet, and then bam, you raise. But the idea of putting money into the pot when you're not bluffing just to fold to future aggression is certainly not a straightfoward concept.

You aren't the first person to be confused by the B/F. You won't be the last.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

good perspective Z. I like it.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

@ OP

To really understand the concepts of river play you should pick up Theory of Poker and read the chapter on river play. (And rest of the book of course)

Reading the forums on 2p2 is fine as well but a lot of posters will advocate plays assuming most readers are familiar with concepts explained in TOP so you run the rsik of misundersatnding and thus misapplying the advice you read. Reading TOP and other books on poker is really going to improve you learning curve from reading 2p2.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

wow Zeldark ... that really put it in perspective for me

thanks also to you Oink, i have heard on this forum that is a thing to read and i sometimes visit the Poker Theory forum, i'll make sure i pick that up

I'm just switching over from NL b/c i can't handle the swings and for some reason just can't get ahead in the game, I have played some limit now and then but it was more of a pass the time thing. The funny thing is I made some money goofing off at 5/10 limit. I have been reading the FAQ posted and some of Ed Millers stuff. Going to have to go pick up his book SSL sometime soon.

Anything else you would like to throw at me right now: any more good books, starting BB to sit with, starting roll(BB)??

Thanks Again.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just switching over from NL b/c i can't handle the swings

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are looking for less variance in LIMIT, you are probably in a wrong place.

Sit with at least 30 BB. Reload if get below 20. 300-400 BB starting bankroll.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

It took me a while to progress from bet/call to bet/fold, like Aussie describes. It seemed weird when I first started doing it but eventually it becomes natural and you do it as a standard action.

A good situation to learn to apply it would be against loose passive players who never bluff and will call, call, call, call, call, call, ... with a draw or small made hand but will raise the turn or river with a big hand - where a big hand is 2 pair or better.

Say you open raise at 10 player table in middle position with AK. A bad loose passive player cold calls in the CO. Button and sb fold. BB calls.

The flop is King/rag/rag. bb checks, you bet, CO calls, BB folds.

The turn is another blank. You bet, CO calls.

The river is yet another blank. You bet, CO raises. You can fold here because CO does not bluff and never raises the turn or river with less than TPTK.

It was still correct to bet this river because CO will call with lots of hands you beat but will not bet a hand you beat on the river if checked to. You're more often ahead than behind on this river so bet/fold is your most profitable move long term.

Re: B/F on River .... why?
 

A thing to note the b/f is that it should not be used too often as it will encurage [observant] people to take shots and bluff at you (they dont have to succeed very often to make it a +EV play for them). You will be making a huge mistake everytime you are folding the best hand against a bluff raise. And it will take a lot of perfect b/f:ing to make up for that.

Also, it is to be used when you are OOP and intend to call anyway, but you are not sure that you have the best hand. By b/f you want to prevent your opponent to check behind with his weak hands that you beat and bet his strong hands.
but I guess that has been said already.
-d