live 6/12, AKs BB
 

One average player limps in MP1, one bad (loose) player limps in CO, another bad (loose) player raises BN, Hero 3-bets A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], MP1 folds, CO calls, BN calls.

Flop [9.7 SB]: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, CO fumbles for chips and bets, BN calls, Hero calls.

Turn [6.3 BB]: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero bets...

Last money going in the pot for me. Spewy or nice?

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

If it's the last money going in, nice. I think many players live shut down when a four flush hits the board.. so you may be able to get a lower diamond to fold if you continue. But with three others in the pot one of them has to have a diamond.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

I would just fold the flop.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

Agreed.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

spewy, fold the flop

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

Additional info that may or may not change your perceived spewiness of this play: PF BN raiser is all-in with the flop call.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Additional info that may or may not change your perceived spewiness of this play: PF BN raiser is all-in with the flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just makes the call even worse. Empty side pot, 3bet pot, you think he's bluffing?

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

Just to correct the Count's comment, there are two opponents, not three, one of whom is all-in after calling the flop bet from the player who limped and cold called the 3-bet.

I think the BN has two cards -- he's all-in, and he's a donkey. And I don't think the flop bettor is bluffing, but I *do* think he could have all sorts of one pair hands without a diamond, not to mention small diamonds that he might fold here. He could also have some two pair hands that this particular player can't put additional bets in with where the turn and river would go bet-call/check-check.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

c/f.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
If it's the last money going in, nice. I think many players live shut down when a four flush hits the board.. so you may be able to get a lower diamond to fold if you continue. But with three others in the pot one of them has to have a diamond.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the typical live player shuts down - meaning they won't raise with the 2nd nuts, but they'll call you down with the 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

the 5 of diamonds i think folds in most cases here. i dont think they call down

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
the 5 of diamonds i think folds in most cases here. i dont think they call down

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously depends on specific reads, but I'd disagree and say it calls down most of the time.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
the 5 of diamonds i think folds in most cases here. i dont think they call down

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone tight enough to fold the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the turn would have folded it before the turn.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the 5 of diamonds i think folds in most cases here. i dont think they call down

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously depends on specific reads, but I'd disagree and say it calls down most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

i say it calls down a high percentage of the time but i dont think there isnt any value betting. there is a chance of him folding so we try this play

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

The 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] never folds here. It's not like they got to the turn with random cards and then suddenly decided to look and said, "Oh, how did I get here with a one card flush, I think I'll fold it!" CO might make some sense if he had like 52s and flopped a made flush, but WTF did button call the flop with that has the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in it but would now fold? If he can even have something like a piece of the board + the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] he's not folding it now. Same for something like 55 with the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or something like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If button got here with the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] he's not folding it, and given hero's read on CO as a "bad loose player" he probably isn't folding his flopped flush either. Not for one bet anyway.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

You have enough to peel the flop getting 11.7:1, but c/f the turn.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

Given my read of villain as a loose player, I can see how this is a mistake. However, results (wheeee!):

Hero bets turn, CO mucks 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] face up, BN turns over QJ. Hero is berated by the table while raking in the pot.

Re: live 6/12, AKs BB
 

folding on the flop is probably the right move based on the CO fumbling with his chips...i think an experienced player would stack his chips into small and big bet stacks before the hand so he can put the chips into the pot without much effort...when excited it becomes very difficult to control shaking of one's hands...one way to cover that is to prestack your chips...the CO hasn't learned that yet and his fumbling indicates excitement

the board by itself is not enough to discourage me...there are only two others in the hand (with 3 i start to get cautious about flushes) so a flush board here does not scare me without strong betting...we have 3 outs to a straight and another 1 or 2 for our overcards, so i would take off one card here figuring i have pot odds and implied odds if i make my hand

turn is a fold