Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

I haven't posted in a long time, but I read this forum all the time. I thought this video might generate some good discussion. I'll let it speak for itself...

Link

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

This irritates me. There are ALREADY laws that prevent companies from hiring the most qualified employee if that worker happens to be foreign-born. We've got these laws that make companies blow money on lawyers and jump through dumb hoops. And now we have propaganda pieces like this that demonize companies for complying with the law and doing their best to find the most qualified, most suitable worker.

Give me a break. Exactly how many advantages does the noble American worker need to compete with some poor disadvantaged guy from India or China? If American workers are losing their jobs to more qualified employees, how about they get their act together and develop some marketable skills? But that's not even a consideration. Go right to the government and demand a handout. More onerous laws to prevent companies from hiring the deserving candidates. Gigantic walls along the Rio Grande. Anything to prevent foreign workers from being able to compete fairly.

Disgraceful. If these losers can't hack it in the world economy, maybe we should set up a special welfare program for them. (Or maybe they should cut up some of their credit cards and start living within the means their limited skills can provide them.) But it makes me [censored] sick when all these whining rent-seekers try to clothe themselves in the mythology of the American Working Man. American industry became great because of competition, innovation, and hard work. The real American Working Man of legend was a productive, disciplined worker who just happened to be American. To hear people today, you'd think that it's a divinely-ordained law that every worthless drone born in Ohio or Illinois must have a cushy union job that pays him far out of proportion to the value of his labor. That sort of attitude is the real threat to the economic future of this country, not globalization.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

Wow! Well I can't say I didn't expect this kind of response from some, but not the 1st one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So according to you this video shows how Americans just can't hack it?

The video states clearly that they are looking for any possible reason to disqualify American workers. This includes pay scale. So if the applicant has an annual salary request of $30k/year on his resume and they only want to pay $25k/year they automatically disqualify even though his/her other qualifications may make them a perfect candidate for that job. They may take the job at a lower pay scale if they really need the work.

edit: They also metion in the vid that they should not include the wage they are willing to pay in the general ad.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

They're the ones looking to hire people, what business is it of yours how they decide whom to hire? What do you think should be done to them to make their hiring align with your desires?

Haven't watched the video yet.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

A level playing field might be a good place to start.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

I don't think you andwered either of my questions.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
So according to you this video shows how Americans just can't hack it?

The video states clearly that they are looking for any possible reason to disqualify American workers. This includes pay scale. So if the applicant has an annual salary request of $30k/year on his resume and they only want to pay $25k/year they automatically disqualify even though his/her other qualifications may make them a perfect candidate for that job. They may take the job at a lower pay scale if they really need the work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think they're going through this sham job search? I'm guessing that almost always it's going to be because they have a brilliant prospect they want to hire. Maybe it's because the foreign worker will work for less. In either case, they have to show that ZERO Americans will show up and offer to do the job. Why on earth would you expect them to go all out to find a marginally acceptable American to displace their first-choice candidate? If the American workers really were the best for the job, companies would go out of their way to find and hire them. I don't want to oversimplify, but companies are going to hire the workers who will add the most value to their enterprise. If they're going out of their way to avoid hiring Americans, then yes, I'd say that shows the Americans can't hack it.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

Who cares? The companies shouldn't have to go through ANY idiot hoops before they look to immigrant workers. If they want to hire foreign workers and ignore U.S. workers, because of salary or whatever other reason, fine, let them. Don't buy the company's services if you don't like it.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you andwered either of my questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's none of my business since I'm not applying for a job at one of their clients companies, but does that mean I can't have an opinion?

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse..../immigrant.gif

From Oops! You're racist by Maddox. I'll let the article speak for itself. I think it will generate some interesting discussion.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you andwered either of my questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's none of my business since I'm not applying for a job at one of their clients companies, but does that mean I can't have an opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sure you can have an opinion, we all know what those are like. But the fact you're posting about your opinion on Politics implies you might want politicians to "do something" to "fix the problem". Otherwise what sort of duscussion are you hoping to elicit? We all just talk about whether these people ought to hire more or less Americans with their own money?

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares? The companies shouldn't have to go through ANY idiot hoops before they look to immigrant workers. If they want to hire foreign workers and ignore U.S. workers, because of salary or whatever other reason, fine, let them. Don't buy the company's services if you don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding sir. This is an awful debate. "How many whites/blacks/latinos did we hire today", well how's about "who gives a damn". Hire the best emplyees.

Cody

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

Here's a [censored] idiot comment on the YouTube page:

"wow.... sucks to be an American :\

Apparently people don't count for anything when business is involved. It's really unfortunate."

Here's my response:

"Um...non-Americans are people too. If they can do the job better and cheaper than we can, more power to them."

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a [censored] idiot comment on the YouTube page:

"wow.... sucks to be an American :\

Apparently people don't count for anything when business is involved. It's really unfortunate."

Here's my response:

"Um...non-Americans are people too. If they can do the job better and cheaper than we can, more power to them."

[/ QUOTE ]

Blech, why'd you induce me to read that comment page? Just depressing. Apparently everyone's economic woes can be blamed on three groups: America-hating traitors, lawyers, and (of course) the Jews.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

I watched this video while playing poker so maybe the point was lost on me. Are they looking for non americans out of spite? Will the hire an American who is the most qualified and the cheapest candidate? Or is this company just looking for the best person to hire and just using a hole in the system to find the best worked regardless of the country of origin?

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

Labor is a commodity, and if companies can get better qualified candidates to do the job for less, it is their prerogative. You may not agree with it, but that is their choice. If push comes to shove and the companies start getting fined by the DOJ and DOL, they will just move overseas so everyone loses.

It sucks, but it is reality. Why am I reminded of this when I see reports like this? If you don't like do what JuntMonkey said:

[ QUOTE ]

Who cares? The companies shouldn't have to go through ANY idiot hoops before they look to immigrant workers. If they want to hire foreign workers and ignore U.S. workers, because of salary or whatever other reason, fine, let them. Don't buy the company's services if you don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same and "boycott" my share of companies---Qwest, Amex, ATT are all on my "do not buy" list along with other firms for various reasons, although none of them are for their labor practices.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a [censored] idiot comment on the YouTube page:

"wow.... sucks to be an American :\

Apparently people don't count for anything when business is involved. It's really unfortunate."

Here's my response:

"Um...non-Americans are people too. If they can do the job better and cheaper than we can, more power to them."

[/ QUOTE ]

Blech, why'd you induce me to read that comment page? Just depressing. Apparently everyone's economic woes can be blamed on three groups: America-hating traitors, lawyers, and (of course) the Jews.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the haters in ATF (etc) who think the 2+2 politics forum is "unreadable" should have to read a few comment pages like that.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I watched this video while playing poker so maybe the point was lost on me. Are they looking for non americans out of spite? Will the hire an American who is the most qualified and the cheapest candidate? Or is this company just looking for the best person to hire and just using a hole in the system to find the best worked regardless of the country of origin?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hiring H1-B workers is generally more about how foreigners are willing to work for less than finding the candidate who will do the best work. The anedcotal evidence I've heard suggests that H1-B employees generally do poor work. Bobman is way off when he talks about how companies just want to hire the best employees and American workers should go out to get skills. American employees have the skills, employers just don't want to pay for them.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

This is about breaking the law to screw americans over for the benefit of a few managers and shareholders.

Real wages for 90 percent of americans are declining. You are terrible people if you want that trend to continue.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is about breaking the law to screw americans over for the benefit of a few managers and shareholders.

Real wages for 90 percent of americans are declining. You are terrible people if you want that trend to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. the law is stupid and self destructive. A free flow of labor benefits all.

2. Ah, the other guy is just evil. A classic debate tactic.

natedogg

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is about breaking the law to screw americans over for the benefit of a few managers and shareholders.

Real wages for 90 percent of americans are declining. You are terrible people if you want that trend to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. the law is stupid and self destructive. A free flow of labor benefits all.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

+1

To quote Ronald Reagen (gulp) Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem and that's the absolute truth.

Now have our politicians and the people who vote for them start to acknowledge that piece of wisdom and act accordingly.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I watched this video while playing poker so maybe the point was lost on me. Are they looking for non americans out of spite? Will the hire an American who is the most qualified and the cheapest candidate? Or is this company just looking for the best person to hire and just using a hole in the system to find the best worked regardless of the country of origin?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hiring H1-B workers is generally more about how foreigners are willing to work for less than finding the candidate who will do the best work. The anedcotal evidence I've heard suggests that H1-B employees generally do poor work. Bobman is way off when he talks about how companies just want to hire the best employees and American workers should go out to get skills. American employees have the skills, employers just don't want to pay for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just going off anecdotes myself, I'm no immigration expert, so I'll take your word for it.

But if you have a "skill" that employers aren't interested in paying for, then how much of a skill is it? Having a degree or 10 years work experience is not an entitlement to getting paid 70k a year for the rest of your life. If the price of your job goes down because supply increases, too bad for you. Suck it up or develop some more valuable skills.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

I find more and more threads where I have nothing to contribute because bobman has said everything I want to say.

This should probably worry bobman.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find more and more threads where I have nothing to contribute because bobman has said everything I want to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, I choose to "contribute" anyway...

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I watched this video while playing poker so maybe the point was lost on me. Are they looking for non americans out of spite? Will the hire an American who is the most qualified and the cheapest candidate? Or is this company just looking for the best person to hire and just using a hole in the system to find the best worked regardless of the country of origin?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hiring H1-B workers is generally more about how foreigners are willing to work for less than finding the candidate who will do the best work. The anedcotal evidence I've heard suggests that H1-B employees generally do poor work. Bobman is way off when he talks about how companies just want to hire the best employees and American workers should go out to get skills. American employees have the skills, employers just don't want to pay for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you're a poker player, so you should understand expected value. The quality of work done by an employee is meaningless if you don't take into account what he's getting payed. The employee that gives you the most value per cost is the best employee. If a big, beefy, red-blooded American can do 2 times the work of a dirty immigrant but costs me 3 times as much obviously I'm going to hire immigrants (unless somebody stops me through threat of violence). Higher quality work does not a better employee make (necessarily).

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if you have a "skill" that employers aren't interested in paying for, then how much of a skill is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If a company hires an H-1B simply because they are cheap, and not because they are good, they will pay the price in the long run. The market takes care of this eventually, but it is surely a pain in the ass when you're out of work.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]


1. the law is stupid and self destructive. A free flow of labor benefits all.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. In the short term, there is no doubt that lower income lesser skilled workers pay a disproportionately high price for an increasing supply of labor.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

I work with a lot of H1-Bs. They don't make less at my company, and their work is of at least the same quality as the Americans who work here if not higher.

H1-Bs are definitely not a problem. If anything the US should be trying to attract more. The reason why a lot of tech jobs are moving overseas is because the US labor pool is not large enough.

Would you rather have an H1-B working here paying taxes and enjoying the high standard of American living while perpetuating it

or

have them get the same job in their home country making less, but increasing the economy of their own country rather than ours?

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I work with a lot of H1-Bs. They don't make less at my company, and their work is of at least the same quality as the Americans who work here if not higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the distribution of skill among H-1Bs is the same as it is for native workers. Most suck, some are really good, the rest are mediocre. My experience is that the typical H-1B is dumber than a box of hammers. But anecdotes are like a-holes.

[ QUOTE ]
H1-Bs are definitely not a problem. If anything the US should be trying to attract more. The reason why a lot of tech jobs are moving overseas is because the US labor pool is not large enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. My company, for example, is moving work overseas not because Americans are too expensive, but because they're generally unavailable.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

max - your company's management is pretty stupid if they pay the H1-B guys the same as other employees.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Real wages for 90 percent of americans are declining. You are terrible people if you want that trend to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're a terrible person if you think Americans "deserve" to make a few extra thousand whereas Mexicans don't deserve to eat.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

The YouTube comments page has gone completely out of control.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

Check out this Information Week article. Heh.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find more and more threads where I have nothing to contribute because bobman has said everything I want to say.

This should probably worry bobman.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very concerned. I went out today and got myself a new "I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] THE STATE" bumper sticker for my car today just to remind myself what I believe in.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

God bless Bobman. His first response is exactly true.

The union period in American history is really regrettable. Bryan Caplan of Econlog makes the point that we glorify this period of American history wrongly because of American dominance of the world economy. In a new industry, he claims, growth is paramount: grabbing market share makes less sense that controlling profits. Google, for example, might be the prime example of our time. It has grabbed huge share of the search industry, lavishly spending on its employees to grab valuable market share, (and they have low fixed costs). Similary, the big 3 in Detroit were so busy expanding and creating cars for everyone in America that not much attention was paid to the insanely cushy jobs of the American union worker, who doesn't currently have marketable skills. The auto industry has matured. The IT industry is maturing. Clearly, there is much to gain in a new entrepneurial industry of IT. Perhaps it's "Web 2.0" (Facebook?) Perhaps it's telecom like Skype. There are always possibilities for people who want to make alot of money, and paying attention to the trends would do anyone well for those who want those cushy jobs.

Yet I am pleased as well. For all the whining of these "poor Americans", the beautiful power of evolution and creative destruction raises its head again. You see, a singular government can no longer tyrannize its own people. It is a beautiful thing we don't have a global government, because now even governments must deal with the slimming effects of competition. Capital is HIGHLY mobile. No longer can corrupt and inefficient governments lord over their profitable industry. Limit the freedom of IT in America, and it will JUST MOVE. Corporate tax rates are plummeting around the globe, and governments are keenly competing to attract high-growth industries, with those requisite skills and minds. Let America overextend itself. The moment we lose our entrepreneurial spirit, vigor, and commendable individualism, that's the moment I lose my national "pride" - I'm ready for the Chinese, or Singaporean, or Irish resurgence. Governments, for the first time, beware.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Real wages for 90 percent of americans are declining. You are terrible people if you want that trend to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're a terrible person if you think Americans "deserve" to make a few extra thousand whereas Mexicans don't deserve to eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, "deserve" is a moral or ethical judgment, not really an objective standard. Blue-collar Americans are not to be faulted for placing their own interests first, just as you are not to be faulted for putting your own self-interest above the interests of your opponents when you try to win over them at poker.

Also, I'm afraid I still don't fully understand why Mexico apparently can't become prosperous in its own right: Mexico has a large and eager work force, as well as abundant natural resources including oil, so...why must Mexicans move to the United States in order to eat?

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Real wages for 90 percent of americans are declining. You are terrible people if you want that trend to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're a terrible person if you think Americans "deserve" to make a few extra thousand whereas Mexicans don't deserve to eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, "deserve" is a moral or ethical judgment, not really an objective standard. Blue-collar Americans are not to be faulted for placing their own interests first, just as you are not to be faulted for putting your own self-interest above the interests of your opponents when you try to win over them at poker.

Also, I'm afraid I still don't fully understand why Mexico apparently can't become prosperous in its own right: Mexico has a large and eager work force, as well as abundant natural resources including oil, so...why must Mexicans move to the United States in order to eat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Their government is even worse than ours? You are confusing Mexicans (the nationality) with Mexicans (the individuals) here, I think. The individuals are coming here because thats where the jobs are. I don't know why the nationality can't create more jobs or whatever, I don't know anything about Mexican economics.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

I'm not sure what their motivation is at this company, but I have to agree that whatever it is, it's their business to run their place as they see fit, including hiring anyone they choose without any intervention from the government.
That said; how it affects American workers should not matter. If the best workers cannot get work at places like this, then they will form their own companies, and perhaps do better.
Personally, I wouldn't waste my time and energy working for these cheap bastards. The only thing missing in the video is the clown suits.

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


1. the law is stupid and self destructive. A free flow of labor benefits all.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. In the short term, there is no doubt that lower income lesser skilled workers pay a disproportionately high price for an increasing supply of labor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, as soon as I hit send I thought about "for all" and it's obviously not true. Those whose wages would remain higher through protectionism will be hurt a bit in the short term.

But when it comes to skilled workers, job protectionism is absolutely ridiculous and even for unskilled workers, the free flow of labor eventually creates more jobs and industries and/or spurs workers to develop skills.

natedogg

Re: Let\'s find ways to dismiss American workers
 

[ QUOTE ]
And now we have propaganda pieces like this that demonize companies for complying with the law and doing their best to find the most qualified, most suitable worker.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't expect the Programmers Guild, a union-like outfit, to try to protect and better the working conditions of its sector? These kind of professional organizations have been very successful in the past. Just ask your doctor, nurse, engineer, architect, or favorite ball player.

How does "Our goal is clearly NOT to find a qualified worker" appear to you not to be a circumvention of the law? And you still say they are doing their best to find the most qualified, most suitable worker?!?

[ QUOTE ]
If the price of your job goes down because supply increases, too bad for you. Suck it up or develop some more valuable skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I'm a 55 year old semi-skilled, trades, or manufacturing worker in Pittsburgh with 35 years in and it is too bad for me? Sorry, Bob, I'm going to try to protect my job. My freedom of association is still OK with you isn't it?