QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

It's the second day of event 3 and we have like 90 or so players left, the average stack is around 100k...

The villain in this hand is Eric Baldwin, aka basebaldy... we played a hand a couple hours earlier where I 4 bet shoved with T9o and showed him (dumb i know)... We are by far the most aggressive and best players at the table... beginning the hand I have ~200k and he has ~175k... Blinds are 2k-4k w/ 500 ante

I open in mp to 14k w/ Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he smooth calls on the button... Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]... I lead 21k and he raises to 71k... I????

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

seems like an easy shove based on your description

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

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seems like an easy shove based on your description

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Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

i used to show my cards live, but it burns so much of ya plays away and totally distorts the way people play back at ya. id shove

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

So are you guys shoving A9?? A8??

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

i sure am not folding an overpair 40BB deep when i have an image of an aggressive player capable of running a big bluff...


edit: i'm not sure what you're questioning here. i mean, if you want to call and get it in on any turn, i guess that's fine, too. but i just prefer shoving in this spot because there are enough cards that come on the turn that could cause him to stop.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

This is pretty read dependent. But I have to agree with djk123, given your image I think you have to shove. I guess you could read him for a set or two pair and fold.



results please

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

The way you described your history with this player and his and your image the only answer is shove, sorry you were beat.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The way you described your history with this player and his and your image the only answer is shove, sorry you were beat.

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I actually folded... The worst hand I could see him showing up with here is some sort of big draw... I really don't see him raising that much with air... I think he could easily show up with AA,KK,99,88,44... i just don't see him getting too frisky with a big stack here... I think if he had air, a float would be a far better move risking so many less chips...

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

Wow do not fold. There are not that many reasons other than you are 40bb's deep, you have an aggressive image, and this player is capable of making a move. If you are beat, you are beat. You have a long way to go until you make any real money and it's not time to conserve that stack.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

I don't know how he plays but spades/TJs/TT?/JJ?/A9s?/AKo have to be a big enough part of his range to stack off only 40bbs deep with an aggro image.

I'm sorry but flop raise on draw heavy board against a crazy opponent who can fourbet 9To pf and cbets often =/= set

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

I would never fold there giving ur history with him. I cant think of him making such a big raise iwth a set of 9, 8, or 4 on the flop. Id beat him in the pot after he reraised it to 71k, i could even see him folding after ur push

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

fold

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's the second day of event 3 and we have like 90 or so players left, the average stack is around 100k...

The villain in this hand is Eric Baldwin, aka basebaldy... we played a hand a couple hours earlier where I 4 bet shoved with T9o and showed him (dumb i know)... We are by far the most aggressive and best players at the table... beginning the hand I have ~200k and he has ~175k... Blinds are 2k-4k w/ 500 ante

I open in mp to 14k w/ Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he smooth calls on the button... Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]... I lead 21k and he raises to 71k... I????

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is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], in his range??

would he flat call with 4/4, 8/8, or 9/9 here?

when he puts the 71k in, he's playing for his whole stack...you're beat, muck

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

This is a smart, aggressive, thinking villain. He knows that you know, etc. I do not think this is an easy shove by any stretch. I guess y'all who say "easy shove" think air is in his range a lot, because I don't see many hands we're beating here.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

I shove and I'm pretty happy with it.

His pf range is very wide

Your pf range is very wide and you almost never have a hand as strong as QQ on the flop.

He can raise TJ or any other flushdraws or big 9s/TT/JJ for value.

He can bluff raise this flop and fold to a shove.

40bbs deep given your history I doubt he'd cold call AA/KK here pf.

So the only hands beating you are sets and 89 even though he has a very wide range and can raise this flop with air/ a bunch of draws.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

Can't fold this... he could have any sort of draw; I also think based on your previous hand, he might be smooth calling with a set; if he thinks you are that aggressive, why is he trying to make you fold when he has a monster? I insta shove and try to beat his AsJs for a huge stack

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a smart, aggressive, thinking villain. He knows that you know, etc. I do not think this is an easy shove by any stretch. I guess y'all who say "easy shove" think air is in his range a lot, because I don't see many hands we're beating here.

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he certainly can have draws/air. Put yourself in his shoes, against a known agressive player would you not try to put a move on the flop if you called preflop on a flop you partially hit??

The way I see it, these 2 were playing really LAG and opening many many pots so our position (UTG) doesn't mean that much and villain could also be 'trapping' with TT/JJ. I think villain's range here is pretty wide (9x/OESD/FD/TT-JJ/sets/2pr). With that range, it becomes an easy shove.

I guess a physic tell would be necessary for me to fold here since I'm never folding this online against a known LAG.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

Seriously... to those that say easy shove, what are you doing w/ A9 here???

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

JP,

top pair top kicker is pretty much the nuts, too.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

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i sure am not folding an overpair 40BB deep when i have an image of an aggressive player capable of running a big bluff...

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it's funny, one this I've noticed about the HSMTT forum (which I really like) is very often someone nails the correct answer in like the first three replies but the discussion just keeps going and going. This isn't a bad thing, it's actually quite good, I've just noticed it a lot more than pretty much any other forum.

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The worst hand I could see him showing up with here is some sort of big draw... I really don't see him raising that much with air... I think he could easily show up with AA,KK,99,88,44...

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Board: 9s 8s 4d

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.342% 48.39% 00.95% 23952 472.50 { QdQh }
Hand 1: 50.658% 49.70% 00.95% 24603 472.50 { 88+, 44, JTs, AKo }
(Yes, I threw AK in there, I think its as a very conservative bluff coverer, I actually think this is a fair range and if anything a little on the tight side).

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously... to those that say easy shove, what are you doing w/ A9 here???

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QQ != A9 in this spot.

Board: 9s 8s 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.263% 32.26% 00.00% 180141 0.00 { A9s, A9o }
Hand 1: 67.737% 67.74% 00.00% 378219 0.00 { 88+, 44, JTs, AKo }

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

if he ever calls pre to outplay post, this is a great board for a raise imo. i dont see how you can get away from this at all.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

This is an impossible situation, and a good case can be made for pushing, calling or folding. If you're both very good, agressive players, from his perspective, you could have anything, and from your perspective, he could have anything. The "I don't think he'd risk that much of his stack on a bluff" doesn't apply to great players. If you think you have a serious edge over the other players at the table, you might be better off folding, since you could be way behind. But, if you fold, you're sending out a signal to any good aggressive players at the table (according to you, he's the only other one) that you can be pushed around. You could also be way ahead, and this could be your shot to accumulate a monster stack and cripple your only real competition at the table. Or you could be racing. He could have a big draw, in which case the best play would be to call and then push if the turn is a brick.

Look down at your watch. If the second hand is between 1-20, push; 21-40, call; 41-60, fold.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

Range is probably 89,sets,76s,Q10s,J10s,and air.

I'm not sure how often this is JJ or tens since he likely repops them preflop, as well as Aces or Kings.

Tough spot but given 40 BB stacks I'd jam it.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

EDIT

Anybody believe that due to the creative clashing in the past that it is more likely that he actually has a hand here and won't be messing around with air because hero is more likely to call?

Put me in that camp.

I'm treating A9 like AA, KK, and QQ here.

I don't think his range includes big pairs...its mainly the range in my above post so yeah, if Im jamming QQ Im jamming A9.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

I dont see why you keep asking what people would do with A9 here? That is a completely different situation. If you have A9, it is reasonable for villain to now hold TT-QQ. If he has TJ, you have to fade so many cards to win.

As it is, you beat TT-JJ, A9, 67, TJ, Axs, 9T and lose to AA, KK, 99, 88, 89.

The only way im folding here is:
1. I rarely cbet any flop
2. I am perceived as VERY tight
3. My opponent is not capable of raising here as a semibluff

Somehow I dont think those 3 criteria are met here. I think laying down A9 is much more understandable than laying down QQ.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Range is probably 89,sets,76s,Q10s,J10s,and air.

I'm not sure how often this is JJ or tens since he likely repops them preflop, as well as Aces or Kings.

Tough spot but given 40 BB stacks I'd jam it.

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I think TT/JJ is a good portion of his range. He has position and the raise comes from UTG. He's certainly not folding but 3betting lets all lesser hands fold and all better hands crush you.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

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I think TT/JJ is a good portion of his range. He has position and the raise comes from UTG. He's certainly not folding but 3betting lets all lesser hands fold and all better hands crush you.

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Couldn't the exact same be said for TT and JJ on this flop?

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

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I think TT/JJ is a good portion of his range. He has position and the raise comes from UTG. He's certainly not folding but 3betting lets all lesser hands fold and all better hands crush you.

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Couldn't the exact same be said for TT and JJ on this flop?

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no, too many draws to slowplay

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

I'm pretty sure that he would NOT reraise TT and JJ preflop. You showed the T9, so if he reraises TT and JJ, he's pretty much telling you to play perfectly, becuase are you going to fourbang a bluff again? Not bloody likely.

TT and JJ are pretty prominently in his range, which is why i retract my earlier statement that A9 is pretty much the nuts. It's not. QQ is so far and away better than A9 on this board, it's not funny.

I seriously can't imagine folding this hand in this spot. If OP's plan was to bet/fold QQ on the flop, then I'm pretty sure betting the flop was a real, real bad idea.

Re: QQ 2nd day of 1500 nl...
 

what ever u do do not fold, a shove is not a bad move, hes not calling u without a set and if he has one gg anyway