Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

I was in a discussion with several casino employees. They claim many practiced Croupiers, using the right timing and force, can make the ball lands in a certain sector of the wheel at a much higher frequency than standard, making it profitable (and illegal) for him or her to team up with someone on the outside.

Is this possible? How do Casinos protect against it?

Thanks,

Oscar

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

This is very true. Happens mostly in smaller casinos and Indian Casinos.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

Here is a bit of a long story but it may get the point across.

A while back I had an emergency shift as a stacker at a roulette table. The dealer I was working with had extensive experience and only dealt roulette (6 days a week, 10 hours a day). During one of my downs he hit two numbers in a row by chance then said "better bet that one again" and then shot me a look. He set the wheel, spun the ball and hit one off the number he was shooting for.

We talked after and he said the highest number of hits he had in a row was 5. He said it is pretty easy to hit one section a wheel if you try. However there are several things that prevent anyone from getting rich.

1- Despite the best efforts of any croupier it is almost impossible to avoid unexpected bounces off ball deflectors or other parts of the wheel. This will help keep some of the play random and prevents any scheme from working a large percentage of the time.

2- The number tree - If the floor supervisors have any idea of number distributions they will recognize when a croupier is pulling towards even one specific quarter of the wheel.

In croupier courses new dealers are taught to vary the speed of the wheel, and change the speed of the spin to prevent players from getting any edge.

If you want more info about this read Chris Pawlicki's book "Get the Edge at Roulette" which is part of Frank Scoblete's series of literary hopes and prayers. It isn't as easy as it is portrayed but you will get the idea.

The truth is if it was that easy to have a player come in, place a few bets, get the croupier to hit the numbers, and then split the winnings after then everyone would want to deal roulette. I don't know too many dealers who would risk going to jail over something that isn't a 100% lock.

Dan's 2 cents

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

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He said it is pretty easy to hit one section a wheel if you try.

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I have no direct personal knowledge of how easy it might be to manipulate the roulette wheel. However, I have a lot of experience with gamblers, and people who say they can predict random numbers.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Far fewer people believe they can predict random numbers than say that they can. Many people say that they can predict the dice in online backgammon. I frequently offer to make side bets, e.g., if they think 6-6 happens 1/30 of the time, I'll pay 32:1. That almost always shuts people up. People don't believe the crap they say enough to bet on it.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Far fewer people have a real ability to predict random numbers, or to manipulate dice or the wheel, than believe that they do. It's very easy to find patterns in past data, and to exaggerate what you have seen.

I'm not going to say it's impossible to manipulate the roulette wheel. For all I know, it may be no more difficult than a perfect riffle shuffle, which many magicians can do reliably. However, given that someone tells you that they can manipulate the wheel, the probability that they actually can is very low. Even those who don't believe it themselves will have stories to try to get you to believe that they can.

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However there are several things that prevent anyone from getting rich.

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The obstacles you mention are not plausible. The advantage this ability would confer would be huge in comparison with other advantage gambles. It doesn't have to be close to a lock to be exploitable, and it doesn't have to be used in a way that would be obvious. If this ability really were common, it would be exploited often.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.

This is very logical. A roulette table takes up valuable casino floor space, is very slow action and usually requires 2 dealers. Do you think a casino would be happy with just a 5ish percent return on a very slow costly game? If you think about it, even the dumbest of the dumb tourist gambler basically plays a "perfect strategy" when they pick any bet but one (5 bet-1,2,3,0,00) on the roulette wheel. All but one bet always has a 5ish percent house edge (don't know exact number and too lazy to look it up). Compare this with other casino "dumb tourist"table games, slots, keno, etc. Look at all the "bonus spot" table games with huge casino vig, most tourists don't play perfect basic blackjack strategy giving up huge vig to the casino, keno, slots- no need to elaborate on these. Craps have many "sucker bets" hard ways etc. that juice the casinos profit. Casinos aren't in business to just have a 5% house edge on a low volume game. So they basically "cheat" by aiming the ball - most noticeably in smaller casinos with minimal valuable floor space.

Easy to spot. Just watch and see if the dealer studies or looks at the wheel before he throws the ball. There is absolutely no reason a dealer needs to look at the wheel when he releases the ball. He is obviously looking for his target number to release the ball. Also listen for backspin. This enables the ball to "stick" in a slot and not bounce around. You will know it when you hear it.

It is hard for a dealer to cheat with a partner betting on target numbers simply because the pit boss is very aware of this technique and would absolutely scrutinize any large consistent wins on a dealer shift. Easy to look at the tape to see the dealer aiming. Why do you think they always yell out when they cash somebody out? So the Floorman always knows when there is a big payout.

With this in mind can a skilled player be able to beat the wheel by predicting where the dealer is aiming the ball?
Yes, but you have maybe 2-3 spins before the dealer is on to you because you have to bet after the ball is thrown and you usually give it away by betting sectors which the dealer is very familiar with.

Remember, "dealer aiming" does not happen in all casinos. Usually just the smaller ones like Oshea's, Casino Royale etc. I see it alot in Indian casinos (One time I saw a dealer in an Indian casino actually stop the wheel and re-spin it to her desired speed before every sequence!!)

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.

This is very logical. A roulette table takes up valuable casino floor space, is very slow action and usually requires 2 dealers. Do you think a casino would be happy with just a 5ish percent return on a very slow costly game? If you think about it, even the dumbest of the dumb tourist gambler basically plays a "perfect strategy" when they pick any bet but one (5 bet-1,2,3,0,00) on the roulette wheel. All but one bet always has a 5ish percent house edge (don't know exact number and too lazy to look it up). Compare this with other casino "dumb tourist"table games, slots, keno, etc. Look at all the "bonus spot" table games with huge casino vig, most tourists don't play perfect basic blackjack strategy giving up huge vig to the casino, keno, slots- no need to elaborate on these. Craps have many "sucker bets" hard ways etc. that juice the casinos profit. Casinos aren't in business to just have a 5% house edge on a low volume game. So they basically "cheat" by aiming the ball - most noticeably in smaller casinos with minimal valuable floor space.

Easy to spot. Just watch and see if the dealer studies or looks at the wheel before he throws the ball. There is absolutely no reason a dealer needs to look at the wheel when he releases the ball. He is obviously looking for his target number to release the ball. Also listen for backspin. This enables the ball to "stick" in a slot and not bounce around. You will know it when you hear it.

It is hard for a dealer to cheat with a partner betting on target numbers simply because the pit boss is very aware of this technique and would absolutely scrutinize any large consistent wins on a dealer shift. Easy to look at the tape to see the dealer aiming. Why do you think they always yell out when they cash somebody out? So the Floorman always knows when there is a big payout.

With this in mind can a skilled player be able to beat the wheel by predicting where the dealer is aiming the ball?
Yes, but you have maybe 2-3 spins before the dealer is on to you because you have to bet after the ball is thrown and you usually give it away by betting sectors which the dealer is very familiar with.

Remember, "dealer aiming" does not happen in all casinos. Usually just the smaller ones like Oshea's, Casino Royale etc. I see it alot in Indian casinos (One time I saw a dealer in an Indian casino actually stop the wheel and re-spin it to her desired speed before every sequence!!)

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Heh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] This was a good read.

Some changes I would have made were that yes it's a low volume game. But when someone says they could make more money putting slots where the table is might not be true.

When you go to a casino is every single slot being played at once. No

Do all slot Players play roulette. No
Do some slot Players play roulett. Maybe
Do all roulette players play slots... NO
Do all roulette players play blackjack...No

Casinos spread roulette because some people are crazy for it and it's the only game they play. So by not spreading roulette they would be losing that customers income.

Roulette is the easiest of casino games to play except the money wheel. ( I would say slots too but lots of the new 500 coin spinners can get real confusing )

Roulette has a pretty big following and any casino is losing money by not having at least one wheel.

I think if a croup was cheating it was to keep SEVERE BOREDOm AT BAY. If my job was to spin that wheel for 8 hrs a day I would have put a .38 to my temple by now just thinking about how long and boring the days would be.

Practicing aim and precision gives him something to do so if they are cheating its to keep their minds busy and I think the croup would tend to help a player who is tipping than cheat him. I don't see a lot of players tip at roulette maybe it's time to start.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

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The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.

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Just look for old wheels, wheels are not perfect and not random. If you watch for a few hours, you will *always* see a section that comes up more than it should, day after day after day on an old wheel.

Add that to a dealer who throws it the same way every time, and you can negate the house advantage, with high variability.

I thought this was all BS until a friend in AC proved me wrong over a period of several years at the same small casino with a few old wheels.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

Its most likely not an "old wheel" but the dealer aiming at a certain sector. "sector 4" or the 8 numbers right before the 00 is usually the casinos most popular target. 1,3,13,15,22,24,34,36. these are proven to be the least bet numbers (as a whole sector) in roulette so the casino has a huge incentive in aiming for and hitting this sector.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

So you say, [and probably also true]but older wheels are not random [and some newer ones] and this is one reason they were able to 'cheat' the casinos in UK and elsewhere using technology.

I've seen wheels that had to be at least 20-25 years old at the same casino.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

Most people don't know this, but they also use two diffeent sized balls. They are instructed to spin the ball fast and slow, and to vary the speed of the wheel.

Eudaemonic pi is a very good read.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was in a discussion with several casino employees. They claim many practiced Croupiers, using the right timing and force, can make the ball lands in a certain sector of the wheel at a much higher frequency than standard, making it profitable (and illegal) for him or her to team up with someone on the outside.

Is this possible? How do Casinos protect against it?

Thanks,

Oscar

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good article of why it is impossible can be found here:
Steve Forte

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was in a discussion with several casino employees. They claim many practiced Croupiers, using the right timing and force, can make the ball lands in a certain sector of the wheel at a much higher frequency than standard, making it profitable (and illegal) for him or her to team up with someone on the outside.

Is this possible? How do Casinos protect against it?

Thanks,

Oscar

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good article of why it is impossible can be found here:
Steve Forte

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this Steve Forte is a shill for the casino! Roulette wheel manupulation is absolutely and irrefutably (sp) practiced by some casinos! I will comment on some of his arguments:

"A section shooting dealer must first push the rotor perfectly to a practiced, pre-determined speed. The ball must then be placed into the track perfectly at a pre-determined starting point. The ball spin would then have to begin with the same practiced initial velocity, carrying the ball perfect around the track a consistent number of revolutions before drop off. These are the physical skills that would have to be perfected. It would not at all be just a matter of interpreting observations of events that had already occurred."

Nothing has to be perfect! The dealer simply advances the wheel at a constant speed (the wheel is heavy, balanced, and well lubricated maintaining a constant speed for several revolutions) and release ( with backspin) the ball at a "target" number. He doesn't have to get it right all the time - just some of the time to greatly increase that 5.26% casino edge.

"There are two procedures that effectively stop any possibility of the roulette section shooting or steering myth from becoming a reality. They are the “blind spin,” where the dealer spins the ball without ever glancing into the rotor, and the “last pocket spin,” where the dealer picks the ball out of the winning pocket, waits one revolution and spins from the same position the ball last landed. Both the pit boss and Harry McArdle point to these procedures as proof that roulette section shooting or steering exists"

He's right, most dealers in the bigger casinos don't aim and simply use a blind spin. But a majority in the smaller casinos and indian casinos in my opinion do! It's simple, if they look at the wheel and seem to be waiting for a "target number" before they release the ball... they are aiming!!! It is obvious when you see it happening.

"This was no surprise, since the best roulette dealers in the world come from Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico. Having spent time in the casinos of the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico, and having watched the Cuban dealers work here in the states, I can vouch for their incredible mastery of and dedication to the wheel. With a combined 75 years of dealing experience between them, both in Cuba and in the U.S., they were asked for their opinions regarding the recent controversy. They laughed and said, “If we could do that, do you think we’d still be working?”

Their response suggests two very important contradictions to Scott: “Why would anyone develop this skill to cheat players when you could work with outside accomplices to cheat casinos?” and, “If, in fact, this skill was real, you might just have the perfect crime as far as gambling scams go.” "

This is HOGWASH and one of the biggest "roullette is not rigged because..." cliche's . Pit bosses are totally aware of this procedure and a cheating dealer would be found out easily by tracking his larger than average payouts and reviewing the "eye in the sky" videos.

"Finally, how many roulette players are then vulnerable? You can’t cheat any player who bets after the ball is released, skilled or otherwise. You can’t cheat the majority of system players or typical players who spread multiple bets across the layout with no preference for specific numbers or sectors. So who’s left? The occasional player who makes one straight-up bet or a few bets in a specific section? When you do find these roulette players, what happens when other players are betting the other side of the wheel? "

This too is a false argument. Most roulette players are not "system" players and simply have no clue what is going on. The majority of roulette bets are in the middle center of the layout 17,20 etc.. There is an 8 number "sweet spot" section right before the 00 that is statistically proven to receive the least amount of bets. The dealer simply aims for this section... the house probably doubles or triples their vig, thus making roulette profitable enough to justify 2 dealers and valuable floor space (in the smaller joints).

If a dealer spots a "section" player (not hard) he simply throws a random ball and the section player goes away quickly.

One time, playing at "Casino Royale" in Vegas, i was "randomly" (trying to disguise my play pre spin) playing the "sweet spot" section on a full table and one of the dealers kept yelling out "he's on the numbers" to the croupier... totally obvious. I was playing at the Taos Mtn Casino several years ago and was totally rockin the table quadrupled my buyin playing the "sweet splits" (i would split my sweet spot bets depending on the croupier release thus covering opposite sections... making it harder for the croupier to aim away from my sections). The pit boss came over, totally sweating me a few spins, and then whispered something in the dealers ear. On the very next and subsequent spins the dealer said "no more bets" instantaneously after he threw the ball! This obviously killed my advantage... I cashed in and walked (to their delight).

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

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Most people don't know this, but they also use two diffeent sized balls. They are instructed to spin the ball fast and slow, and to vary the speed of the wheel. Eudaemonic pi is a very good read.

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Read it years ago. I don't think you understood the point, and many dealers do not vary the speed of the wheel.

Feel free to show all casino wheels are perfectly random.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

I used to deal roulette, and heard all the stories of people claiming to be able to do it. Confirmation bias plays a part in it.. they'll hit a 1/3 section around 1/3 of the time, apart from the other 2/3 of the time when they make a mistake ("It's not 100%", etc).

Steve Forte is very knowledgable, and whilst I'm not saying it's impossible, I think it's very unlikely. Very very very unlikely.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

My girlfriend and one of her croupier friends have claimed to be able to do this on some wheels. I've never had a chance to test it but I guess it might be possible if the settings are right badly alligned wheel, wrong size ball etc.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

it's theoretically possible, i don't think it happens in practice. here's why:

let's assume we have a superhuman croupier who, 20% of the time, can hit one eight number sector. that is, on 20% of his spins, one of those numbers will come up (evenly distributed over those eight numbers). the rest of the time the wheel is truly random.

so each of our eight target spots come up:

(1/38 * 4/5) + (1/8 * 1/5) = 7/152 = ~4.6% of the time.

so if we bet just one of the eight possible numbers, we make ~0.65 bets per spin. on every spin. that's every spin, not just the 20% that our croupier is accurate.

but the croupier will get caught because the number distribution on his spins won't match with probability! except he won't, because he just changes his eight section target so that each number is within his target range at the same rate as every other number. he can do this just by adding some offset to his target after every x spins. he can change his offset too, to further obscure any attempts to detect him. he can change his partner to prevent casinos from catching on that way. if he wants to get real tricky, he can wait for some bets to be placed before his release and aim to win them, to prevent payouts at his table from getting out of hand.

in short, anyone who can do this can make absurd amounts of money in a short period of time without being detected. no one would waste their time cheating customers if they could make millions virtually risk free.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

A long time ago I told a friend of mine about the book The Eudaemonic Pie. He read it and found it interesting, but basically forgot about it. He was an auction freak. One day at an auction he came across a regulation size roulette wheel and table. He bought it and put it in his basement.

He got to thinking about the book again and started practicing. He got really, really good at not only placing the ball, but at picking a quadrant of numbers.

He started playing in some of the local Indian casinos. I ran into him one day, and he said, "Hey, man I'm beating the s*it out of roulette, just like you told me I could. I'm using your system. Come watch me play."

We talked for a bit, and I was in kind of a stupor about the whole thing. I watched him play and he cleaned up. He would make cover plays and stuff like that, but he would hit the number two or three times in a row, or five out of seven, or somthing similar and then quit.

He always looked for a sleepy dealer who didn't seem very interested in what they were doing. He looked for a dealer who was in a rut. He wanted someone to throw the ball and spin the wheel almost the same way every time.

He knew the system. The sharp dealers would vary their spin and use two different size balls. The sleepy dealers just didn't care, and would do it the same way time after time. He would pretend to be wandering around, but he was watching closely and would jump in when he found the right situation.

He went from casino to casino.

He was a pretty consistent winner, but the casino had him pegged after a while and he couldn't do anything about their counter measures.

It can be beat. I've seen it with my own eyes. I even tried it, but it's harder than it looks and takes a lot of practice.

The casinos understand this and use a lot of different counter measures to keep guys like him from taking shots.

Believe it or not.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's theoretically possible, i don't think it happens in practice. here's why:

let's assume we have a superhuman croupier who, 20% of the time, can hit one eight number sector. that is, on 20% of his spins, one of those numbers will come up (evenly distributed over those eight numbers). the rest of the time the wheel is truly random.

so each of our eight target spots come up:

(1/38 * 4/5) + (1/8 * 1/5) = 7/152 = ~4.6% of the time.

so if we bet just one of the eight possible numbers, we make ~0.65 bets per spin. on every spin. that's every spin, not just the 20% that our croupier is accurate.

but the croupier will get caught because the number distribution on his spins won't match with probability! except he won't, because he just changes his eight section target so that each number is within his target range at the same rate as every other number. he can do this just by adding some offset to his target after every x spins. he can change his offset too, to further obscure any attempts to detect him. he can change his partner to prevent casinos from catching on that way. if he wants to get real tricky, he can wait for some bets to be placed before his release and aim to win them, to prevent payouts at his table from getting out of hand.

in short, anyone who can do this can make absurd amounts of money in a short period of time without being detected. no one would waste their time cheating customers if they could make millions virtually risk free.

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I am not certain but it makes sense to think that the dealers "cheat" the players in roulette in order to receive some sort of extra "commission" from the casino. Otherwise, I see no reason for a dealer to do so. Maybe casino pressure to hit some sort of target "daily take"?

"in short, anyone who can do this can make absurd amounts of money in a short period of time without being detected. no one would waste their time cheating customers if they could make millions virtually risk free."

Since the Pit Bosses are well aware of the aiming technique it would be virtually impossible to make "absurd" amounts of money by the dealer aiming for an accomplice. He might get away with a few thousand before the bosses notice his high payouts are way above average. Whenever huge money comes into play, the dealer almost always announces it to the floor. His job is probably worth more than making a few more thousand a week with the possibilty of big time felony rap (or broken knees!) - or just being fired and blackballed for suspicion.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since the Pit Bosses are well aware of the aiming technique it would be virtually impossible to make "absurd" amounts of money by the dealer aiming for an accomplice. He might get away with a few thousand before the bosses notice his high payouts are way above average. Whenever huge money comes into play, the dealer almost always announces it to the floor. His job is probably worth more than making a few more thousand a week with the possibilty of big time felony rap (or broken knees!) - or just being fired and blackballed for suspicion.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the dealer can control who wins, he can also control who loses. all he has to do is make sure some sucker loses whatever he helps his accomplice win.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since the Pit Bosses are well aware of the aiming technique it would be virtually impossible to make "absurd" amounts of money by the dealer aiming for an accomplice. He might get away with a few thousand before the bosses notice his high payouts are way above average. Whenever huge money comes into play, the dealer almost always announces it to the floor. His job is probably worth more than making a few more thousand a week with the possibilty of big time felony rap (or broken knees!) - or just being fired and blackballed for suspicion.

[/ QUOTE ]

if the dealer can control who wins, he can also control who loses. all he has to do is make sure some sucker loses whatever he helps his accomplice win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This strategy definitely makes sense. However, the floor is always aware of the large cash outs when the dealer colors up the chips. Therefore, the pit boss wouldn't even need to see the days avg shift numbers to know if a dealer is "dumping" to an accomplice. He would know somethings fishy simply by keeping track of a suspected dealers higher than average large cash outs regardless of what he takes in.

I would say 90% of avg roulette players cash out for less (or never cash out at all) than their buy in. So noticing abnormally high "cash outs" would be quite easy.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

lol these posts are so funny, you guys really are bat [censored] insane

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

Well if there isnt any possibility of it working why are the dealers instructed to use different size balls, change the speed of the wheel & vary the speed of their throws?

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well if there isnt any possibility of it working why are the dealers instructed to use different size balls, change the speed of the wheel & vary the speed of their throws?

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For the same reason there are baffles and spinning wheels - the more randomness, the better.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Well if there isnt any possibility of it working why are the dealers instructed to use different size balls, change the speed of the wheel & vary the speed of their throws?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason there are baffles and spinning wheels - the more randomness, the better.

[/ QUOTE ]


So you concur that using the same speed and ball size is not 100% random, and that one with an expert eye to detail can find a +EV edge in roulette under those circumstances?

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

i'll concede that it's not outside the realm of possibility someone can manipulate roulette as claimed in this thread, what i think is ridiculous is the assertion that people who can do this are employed by casinos to screw over the customers in a game that is already massively profitable for the casinos.

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dimbest statement I have read in the past eight years. Do you see why? No? A hint: Players are allowed to place bets, ,move bets, pick up bets both before and after the ball is released and you expect any sane person to not only believe the croupier can not only spin a ball into a specific slot but also read minds. Funny stuff!!

Jimbo

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'll concede that it's not outside the realm of possibility someone can manipulate roulette as claimed in this thread, what i think is ridiculous is the assertion that people who can do this are employed by casinos to screw over the customers in a game that is already massively profitable for the casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like we are playing "there's a hole in the bucket" lol.
Here is an explanation from one of my previous posts.


"This is very logical. A roulette table takes up valuable casino floor space, is very slow action and usually requires 2 dealers. Do you think a casino would be happy with just a 5ish percent return on a very slow costly game? If you think about it, even the dumbest of the dumb tourist gambler basically plays a "perfect strategy" when they pick any bet but one (5 bet-1,2,3,0,00) on the roulette wheel. All but one bet always has a 5ish percent house edge (don't know exact number and too lazy to look it up). Compare this with other casino "dumb tourist"table games, slots, keno, etc. Look at all the "bonus spot" table games with huge casino vig, most tourists don't play perfect basic blackjack strategy giving up huge vig to the casino, keno, slots- no need to elaborate on these. Craps have many "sucker bets" hard ways etc. that juice the casinos profit. Casinos aren't in business to just have a 5% house edge on a low volume game. So they basically "cheat" by aiming the ball - most noticeably in smaller casinos with minimal valuable floor space."

For all you naysayers... the answer is simple! Next time you're in Vegas goto Oshea's or Casino Royale... and just watch the dealer! Either he's aiming or he isn't... it's that simple. If he's aiming - he's watching and waiting for a target number to come around before he releases the ball. If he's not aiming... he is simply releasing the ball without looking at the wheel.

If he is "aiming" make a mental note of the number/sector he is using as a target number when he releases the ball (usually 00,or 0). Compare this to where the ball lands and see if you can predict the outcome next time you see him releasing on the same target number/sector.

Post your observations!

(I'll be in Vegas on Thurs (7-12), I'll let you know if they still do it) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
The roulette wheel is very far from "random". Casino's (especially smaller ones and Indian) use a skilled croupier to "clean out" a table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dimbest statement I have read in the past eight years. Do you see why? No? A hint: Players are allowed to place bets, ,move bets, pick up bets both before and after the ball is released and you expect any sane person to not only believe the croupier can not only spin a ball into a specific slot but also read minds. Funny stuff!!

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Repost of an explanation:

This too is a false argument. Most roulette players are not "system" players and simply have no clue what is going on. The majority of roulette bets are in the middle center of the layout 17,20 etc.. There is an 8 number "sweet spot" section right before the 00 that is statistically proven to receive the least amount of bets. The dealer simply aims for this section... the house probably doubles or triples their vig, thus making roulette profitable enough to justify 2 dealers and valuable floor space (in the smaller joints).

If a dealer spots a "section" player (not hard) he simply throws a random ball and the section player goes away quickly.

One time, playing at "Casino Royale" in Vegas, i was "randomly" (trying to disguise my play pre spin) playing the "sweet spot" section on a full table and one of the dealers kept yelling out "he's on the numbers" to the croupier... totally obvious. I was playing at the Taos Mtn Casino several years ago and was totally rockin the table quadrupled my buyin playing the "sweet splits" (i would split my sweet spot bets depending on the croupier release thus covering opposite sections... making it harder for the croupier to aim away from my sections). The pit boss came over, totally sweating me a few spins, and then whispered something in the dealers ear. On the very next and subsequent spins the dealer said "no more bets" instantaneously after he threw the ball! This obviously killed my advantage... I cashed in and walked (to their delight)."

Once again... go to Oshea's and check it out for yourself!

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

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i'll concede that it's not outside the realm of possibility someone can manipulate roulette as claimed in this thread, what i think is ridiculous is the assertion that people who can do this are employed by casinos to screw over the customers in a game that is already massively profitable for the casinos.

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I feel like we are playing "there's a hole in the bucket" lol.
Here is an explanation from one of my previous posts.


"This is very logical. A roulette table takes up valuable casino floor space, is very slow action and usually requires 2 dealers. Do you think a casino would be happy with just a 5ish percent return on a very slow costly game? If you think about it, even the dumbest of the dumb tourist gambler basically plays a "perfect strategy" when they pick any bet but one (5 bet-1,2,3,0,00) on the roulette wheel. All but one bet always has a 5ish percent house edge (don't know exact number and too lazy to look it up). Compare this with other casino "dumb tourist"table games, slots, keno, etc. Look at all the "bonus spot" table games with huge casino vig, most tourists don't play perfect basic blackjack strategy giving up huge vig to the casino, keno, slots- no need to elaborate on these. Craps have many "sucker bets" hard ways etc. that juice the casinos profit. Casinos aren't in business to just have a 5% house edge on a low volume game. So they basically "cheat" by aiming the ball - most noticeably in smaller casinos with minimal valuable floor space."

For all you naysayers... the answer is simple! Next time you're in Vegas goto Oshea's or Casino Royale... and just watch the dealer! Either he's aiming or he isn't... it's that simple. If he's aiming - he's watching and waiting for a target number to come around before he releases the ball. If he's not aiming... he is simply releasing the ball without looking at the wheel.

If he is "aiming" make a mental note of the number/sector he is using as a target number when he releases the ball (usually 00,or 0). Compare this to where the ball lands and see if you can predict the outcome next time you see him releasing on the same target number/sector.

Post your observations!

(I'll be in Vegas on Thurs (7-12), I'll let you know if they still do it) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I am beginning to think you actually belive this stuff. Now that is more scary than amusing. A casino would kill to have a consistent guaranteed 5% edge across the board. As far as a dealer "aiming" accuraterly enough to make bettors lose you are nuts.

Jimbo

Re: Roulette Croupier Manipulation?
 

This doesn't have much to do w/ manipulation (of the roulette wheel) but it's a pretty good movie. For those of you who haven't seen it check it out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...vis/000001.jpg