Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

It is now 1 year since I quit my day job and have earned my living playing poker both online and live. The 2+2 forums and books by authors here have had a great influence on my success, certainly the speed in which I gained enough skill to do this.

Thank you to both authors and posters of 2+2.

To give back a little to the community I am going to type a little on a different take that I have in successfully becoming a pro. Yes I know a lot of posts and articles have been written hopefully I add a little different spin.

First I am married with 4 children. This has helped me not hurt me. Before leaving my day job I discussed the move with my wife seriously for about 6 months before we agreed it was the right move. Her support both emotionally and financially made it easier to make the jump.

With her agreeing to restart her career (we have a 3 year old) we knew that insurance and our bills were paid. This meant very little pressure for consistant profit and is critical to my comfort zone.

The point here is that all of the articles that I have read seem to state that it is easier if you are single. The truth as I see it is that if you have a partner that will help you it is easier. There are more issues to address but if your spouse will work with you then your individual issues can be less.

Now getting your spouse to want (not reluctantly agree) you to make the career change leads into a big reason for my success this first year. I treated the career move exactly as I would with starting a new business.

I put together a complete business proposal for my wife and myself. I took my last 2 years of earnings to prove a track record. I made very conservative projections of what the new business would profit quarterly along with budget projections for expenses.

When she read my track record she could see my hourly rate was much higher than what I would project so her reaction was "You should make much more than that." I explained that the projections were minimum expectations not goals. This would leave an overall cushion for variance (which all business experience to some degree).

I then presented her with a plan of action. This included time management. This displayed how many hours a week I would work, how many I would review my performance, how many I would research sources of information to enhance my game.

The completeness of information gave her the confidence in me that I knew how to succeed. The fact that I told her that she would be a partner and that we would review overall performance quaterly gave her a sence of tangible control.

She then agreed to her part of the investment enthusiastically.

I also believe that running my poker career as a business gives me an edge that most serious players do not have. I have never gone bust nor have I ever had to play while worrying or under the pressure of busting. Looking at an over view of numbers has also helped me review and ask myself the right questions about my preformance.

I obviously do not believe it is required to get into so much detail to be successful but it certainly would not hurt anyone serious about playing poker for a living.

This leads me to one of the points that I disagree with but see in almost every article on "Turning Pro". Almost always the writer suggests that it is hard and that you should keep your day job.

In my opinion it is no harder than starting a typical business in a typical field. To start a business you need the knowledge and drive to be successful. Remember I did not say easy just no harder than starting a typical business.

I also find that most professionals in various different positions will tell you, "I am successful but it isn't for everyone it is quite difficult to do what I do." It is human nature to believe that you are doing something that most people can not do. Making one's profession more important or difficult leads to advising against a friend trying it because they may fail.

So here is my advice, if you are willing to track your part time play for 2 years, if your play shows improvement over those 2 years, if you are willing to make a conservative/flexible budget and stay within its parameters, if you are willing to make a plan of action and stay within its parameters, if you are willing to close your business and change career if you can not meet the minimum requirements of your business plan and projections for a 3 or 6 month period, if you have the strong desire to take this risk for its rewards then in my opinion you can be successful.

I am certain that succesful pros get away with less but for me this guaruntees success.

I am sorry if this turned into a ramble but I wanted to give back to the community that helped me achieve my goals. Hopefully there is some helpful insight here for you and as always good luck at the tables.

Critter Dude

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Awesome, thanks for posting.

I have a wife and daughter and will be embarking on a pro career in about a month, and also wrote out a detailed business plan, including hours played, limits, success criteria, backup plan, plan for improving, budget, how I anticipate interaction with family/computer time to go and so forth. Essential to do imho.

-g

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The completeness of information gave her the confidence in me that I knew how to succeed. The fact that I told her that she would be a partner and that we would review overall performance quaterly gave her a sence of tangible control.

She then agreed to her part of the investment enthusiastically.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://x10.putfile.com/2/5118285713.jpg

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Seriously though, I liked the spin you put on it

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Thanks for the post. This gives me some hope because I am married with 2 kids. I think it is going to take a lot to convince my wife it's a good idea though.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

My favorite game is a $500 buyin NL Holdem. My income in year 1 was ever so slightly higher than what I made last year at my old job. This fell within my projection so I count it as a successful year.

So I did not get rich in year won matter of fact my standard of living is about the same. I do expect this to improve each year forward.



[ QUOTE ]
if you don't mind, what limits did you play and how much do you avg/month?

I think ppl will be interested to hear this as well. perhaps provide more detail to your story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

I think anyone cosidering to leave the security of a stable job to start there own business has this issue. I suggest that if you get serious that ask yourself what would make her confident in the risk.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the post. This gives me some hope because I am married with 2 kids. I think it is going to take a lot to convince my wife it's a good idea though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

1 thing that must be great is you taking care of the kids during the day. This way you don't have to pay for a baby sitter and can even get all your chores you used to do on the weekends/nighttime after work done during the day so you've got more free time. That's the one thing I've found out since I started this 6 months ago. I make a lot in just 2 hours of play and an hour of doing stock market things in the morning and I have all the free time in the world.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Lol. Not close for me. My youngest goes to daycare and the rest are in school. Except when I take a vacation I typically work a minimum of 60 hours a week.

I do get to take the after school time with the kids that I did not have before but after dinner it is prime time and back to work. During the summer my 15 year old babysits while I am in the "office" working.

I do get the benefit of skipping shaving some mornings though.



[ QUOTE ]
1 thing that must be great is you taking care of the kids during the day. This way you don't have to pay for a baby sitter and can even get all your chores you used to do on the weekends/nighttime after work done during the day so you've got more free time. That's the one thing I've found out since I started this 6 months ago. I make a lot in just 2 hours of play and an hour of doing stock market things in the morning and I have all the free time in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Good to see you are doing well.

How are the critters?

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good to see you are doing well.

How are the critters?

[/ QUOTE ]


My chicken is still missing but my possum, goat, and sheep are doing quite well. My buzzard had become a grandpa and my pelican was stold by an aristocrat named Steven Punk.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point here is that all of the articles that I have read seem to state that it is easier if you are single.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you missed the part of the story where they were married before they began playing poker for a living, then became single.

Jimbo

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point here is that all of the articles that I have read seem to state that it is easier if you are single.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you missed the part of the story where they were married before they began playing poker for a living, then became single.

Jimbo

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Poker has never come close to causing marital problems for me. My guess would be that the wife really did not have a clear understanding of what the life change would mean before agreeing to it or the wife was not consulted at all.

This looks like a communication problem to me. I would venture to guess that business owners that did not properly communicate the investment in time that it takes to run a business suffer similarly at this issue is not specific to poker players.

Had my wife not enthusiastically agreed to my time investment or if she were to communicate at any time that it was putting a strain on our marriage then I would make another career change.

My personal opinion (I am not a doctor but been married for 15 years and gone through my share of issues) is that communication is the root of the problem and poker or job the scape goat.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lol. Not close for me. My youngest goes to daycare and the rest are in school. Except when I take a vacation I typically work a minimum of 60 hours a week.

I do get to take the after school time with the kids that I did not have before but after dinner it is prime time and back to work. During the summer my 15 year old babysits while I am in the "office" working.

I do get the benefit of skipping shaving some mornings though.



[ QUOTE ]
1 thing that must be great is you taking care of the kids during the day. This way you don't have to pay for a baby sitter and can even get all your chores you used to do on the weekends/nighttime after work done during the day so you've got more free time. That's the one thing I've found out since I started this 6 months ago. I make a lot in just 2 hours of play and an hour of doing stock market things in the morning and I have all the free time in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you work 60/hrs a week and you made about the same as you did at your job you are not coming out ahead

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point here is that all of the articles that I have read seem to state that it is easier if you are single.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you missed the part of the story where they were married before they began playing poker for a living, then became single.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO!!! I did that.. She calls me a loser but wants me to pay Child Support in the 225k range..

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Some of what you say might be true for some folks...but actually I just think that poker takes up so much time for some guys it becomes too much of an obsession.
Throw in some losses in there and they can't handle the stress.

A little bit of stress and not paying enough attention to your s.o. will put quite the strain on a relationship.

I've read posts on here about 'my girl says I'm not spending enough time with her and that all I do is play poker'.
The number of people that have this kind of problem is likely WAY too high.


thankfully it's not a problem for me as I actually prefer time spent with my GF to playing poker.
I'm never blowing her off to play in a tournament or anything like that. But it does seem that some guys are frequently trying to find ways to get out of having to spend time or pay attention to their s.o. because there is some poker-related something or other that they want to do.



Aside from that little nit on that reply I think you definitely found a working plan and it was a very nice post.
Serves a nice reminder that I really should get all my records and everything else more organized.

Congratulations on your 1st year and good luck in your 2nd.


Glad to see you come back around here as well and that you hadn't completely dropped off the face of the earth. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you work 60/hrs a week and you made about the same as you did at your job you are not coming out ahead

[/ QUOTE ]

If your looking at working for yourself only as X number of hours for X amount of money your going to have a really hard time the first few years that you are in business (or in this case playing poker).

The differences that aren't measure in $x per hour is the fact that you no longer have a boss (this is worth most people's hourly wage alone) and you now have the potential to make as much money per hour as you have the desire, ambition and skill to.

Working 60 hours a week for yourself is only 1/2 as tiring as working for THE MAN for 40 hours a week, grinding out an existence in a cubicle hoping that your retirement fund will still be in existence when your ready to leave.

When I first came to 2+2 and started reading all these posts about people wanting to go pro and the responses I was amazed that no one looked at it the way I looked at starting my own business. I'm glad to see someone did and did it successfully. Congrats. All those points that you discussed could (and should) apply equally if your starting a business or going pro in the poker world.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Good to see you are doing well.

How are the critters?

[/ QUOTE ]


My chicken is still missing but my possum, goat, and sheep are doing quite well. My buzzard had become a grandpa and my pelican was stold by an aristocrat named Steven Punk.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hey -- thomastem !!

You have had quite a year. Congrats!
I was going to ask about the goat and buzzard also.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
stold by an aristocrat named Steven Punk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that most posters on here these days won't get this reference, oh how times have changed!

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[/ QUOTE ]

If you work 60/hrs a week and you made about the same as you did at your job you are not coming out ahead

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

The first year of a new business typically runs a loss there is a building process. There was also a medical circumstance that effected cash flow and I had to lower my roll and step down in limit.

If in year 2 I do not see an improvement greater than what I would have seen at my last career then I would certainly agree with you.

1 other point, when I say work 60 hours a week 10-20 of it is NOT at the table.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

why aren't you dead?

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

I remember when you were thinking about going pro. I am very impressed with you approach and process. Outstanding! Congratulations and good luck in the future.

p.s. I think the pseudo ban of your posting is gone, post more! (If you post in forums I don't visit, well, bah.)

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Micro Bob,

I hope I do not sound like I am repeating myself but the point that I try to make agrees with what you say but includes all business owners.

The problem of not spending time with your spouse is something most new business owners and several professions have to deal with not just poker. Business owners, specially new ones, deal with days, weeks, months, quarters, or even the first full year of losses.

I also try to make the point that my wife and I discussed this at length, the fact that my time with her and the family will be less and she and I agreed to this sacrifice BEFORE we moved forward.

We also made it clear that if one of us have a change in feelings and feel that the stress is too much that we revisit if it is worth the sacrifice. Everything in life has its price.

I feel the difference between my situation and the others you bring up is that we fully communicated before making a decision and agreed to be flexible if we decide the stress becomes too much.

Very rarely do I see communication in the other posts. Most of the time the spouse did not seem to have any input beforehand.

Im sorry but when I look at the facts the problem is not poker but communication.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Thanks. I do post occassionally. Right now I am picking up 5 draw so my posts have been on "other poker".

As for the Ban I watch me Ps and Qs so that Yohan Sklanski doesn't lock me out.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stold by an aristocrat named Steven Punk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that most posters on here these days won't get this reference, oh how times have changed!

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of a shame. I can remember when we had about 10 different forums.

I use to have fun with Punk. I was always amazed at how silly things could tilt people. If some of the new guard want a good laugh I believe they can look in the archives.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

give us some stats

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you work 60/hrs a week and you made about the same as you did at your job you are not coming out ahead

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people that don't flip burgers or sell t-shirts at the gap work 60+ hours per week. Think before you speak. And yes, that first sentence was intentionally condescending.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
give us some stats

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok here is 1....you have 5 posts.

The point was not to brag but to give my view on my success in completing my first year where poker was my sole income. Since I paid my bills and was never was in danger of busting I count it a success.

Now if you want more positive attention get a list of businesses that are 1 year old and ask them for their stats.

(I almost unleshed my buzzard on your ass rook)

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
communication is the root of the problem and poker or job the scape goat.


[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. You win.

My husband and I have been playing full-time for years now, and this has never been a problem.

(I would never say "for a living," because our money to pay bills came from another source. This was just to pass the time since we couldn't get hired after the tech collapse.)

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Thomas,

It has been awhile for me too. I don't post anymore but I still come back to read occasionally. I saw your post and just had to drop a line to say congratulations. You approached your decision with great thought and even greater communication. You were a class act then although we disagreed occasionally and you are a class act now. Tell the animals I said Hey.

Stage.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tell the animals I said Hey.

Stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Critters....they don't like being discriminated against as animals. One time someone called them "The unholy critters." That really pissed them off.

By the way is Hutz still around?

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

My apologies...I should not have discriminated against them. Of course they are critters. And I don't have a clue about Hutz

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Micro Bob,

I hope I do not sound like I am repeating myself but the point that I try to make agrees with what you say but includes all business owners.

The problem of not spending time with your spouse is something most new business owners and several professions have to deal with not just poker. Business owners, specially new ones, deal with days, weeks, months, quarters, or even the first full year of losses.

I also try to make the point that my wife and I discussed this at length, the fact that my time with her and the family will be less and she and I agreed to this sacrifice BEFORE we moved forward.

We also made it clear that if one of us have a change in feelings and feel that the stress is too much that we revisit if it is worth the sacrifice. Everything in life has its price.

I feel the difference between my situation and the others you bring up is that we fully communicated before making a decision and agreed to be flexible if we decide the stress becomes too much.

Very rarely do I see communication in the other posts. Most of the time the spouse did not seem to have any input beforehand.

Im sorry but when I look at the facts the problem is not poker but communication.

[/ QUOTE ]


you bring up some valid points there.

Although I do think that some of the relationship issues are just the guy becoming too addicted to poker and just blowing off his sig-other.

But certainly for professional players it isn't THAT much different (if at all) than just being upset with somebody for spending too much time at work and not enough time at home (particualrly a small-business owner who has to REALLY dive-in to their business to have any chance of succeeding).


I think all of your ideas about communicating with your wife/family on this and having a true business-plan going in are really terrific.


Obviously part of that business-plan also included not as much time-wasting on 2+2 as well and, instead, making sure that your poker-time is actually productive poker-time.
(the fact that you have been mostly MIA on 2+2 for quite awhile is the evidence here of course).

This is another little aspect of yours that I would be wise to incorporate into my own approach.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Obviously part of that business-plan also included not as much time-wasting on 2+2 as well and, instead, making sure that your poker-time is actually productive poker-time.
(the fact that you have been mostly MIA on 2+2 for quite awhile is the evidence here of course).

This is another little aspect of yours that I would be wise to incorporate into my own approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not post here as I use to be I do read and pickup information to strengthen my game. My Time Management plan calls for/allows for a minimum of 10 hours but no more than 20 per week for improving my game though study of outside sources.

Along with reading posts here I review hand histories, read Card Player as well as Allin Magazines. I include any new books, DVDs, or televised poker events in this category as well.

HHs are a fairly consistant time allotment. When new mags 1st come out I am lucky to get an hour a week viewing posts, less if there is a new book to boot.

The last couple of weeks I have been able to sneak a couple of posts in Other Poker.

Now I may sound a little retentive here but when I discussed my 1st quarter action plan with my better half adding limit 5 Draw was the main new addition. Since there are no good books specific to the game it was decided that the first quarter I would read no books and instead research specific articles plus post on areas to help learn the game.

Sorry if I rambled here but Bob you brought up an interesting example that hammers home the point on turning pro that I do not see in most articles. Planned Time Management is very import imo.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

I ran my own b&m store and let me tell you, comparing playing poker fulltime to being your own boss is like comparing being state governor to president of your school's pta. I'm surprised more people have not tried to go pro, lol.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

Yep, 92% of the people who play poker lose money and yet going pro is ez as pie, almost as ez as joining the army. There is a very good reason why most people say to keep your day job. All of the "plans of action" in the world are not gonna change that.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My favorite game is a $500 buyin NL Holdem. My income in year 1 was ever so slightly higher than what I made last year at my old job. This fell within my projection so I count it as a successful year.

So I did not get rich in year won matter of fact my standard of living is about the same. I do expect this to improve each year forward.



[ QUOTE ]
if you don't mind, what limits did you play and how much do you avg/month?

I think ppl will be interested to hear this as well. perhaps provide more detail to your story.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you should play on making more for a few years, then less and less every year. Not to bring this crap up again, but obviously poker rooms are eventually not gonna be as popular as they are now. There is gonna be a lot less ez money to grab. My guess would be that half the internet pros are gonna be pounding the pavement looking for a job. I have no clue what half you will be in, but I do know that I dont encourage people to quit a stable job for a short term gain.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My favorite game is a $500 buyin NL Holdem. My income in year 1 was ever so slightly higher than what I made last year at my old job. This fell within my projection so I count it as a successful year.

So I did not get rich in year won matter of fact my standard of living is about the same. I do expect this to improve each year forward.



[ QUOTE ]
if you don't mind, what limits did you play and how much do you avg/month?

I think ppl will be interested to hear this as well. perhaps provide more detail to your story.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO you should play on making more for a few years, then less and less every year. Not to bring this crap up again, but obviously poker rooms are eventually not gonna be as popular as they are now. There is gonna be a lot less ez money to grab. My guess would be that half the internet pros are gonna be pounding the pavement looking for a job. I have no clue what half you will be in, but I do know that I dont encourage people to quit a stable job for a short term gain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree completely. 5 years from now, the madness and popularity will dwindle, the fish will be broke and gone, and you will have a gaping 5 year hole in your resume. Online poker may not even exist as we know it, and definitely not in its present untaxed state. I think you have made a huge mistake and gambled with your family's long term well-being. I hope the escape from responsibility was worth it.

Re: Earning a living playing poker 1 year later.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agree completely. 5 years from now, the madness and popularity will dwindle, the fish will be broke and gone, and you will have a gaping 5 year hole in your resume. Online poker may not even exist as we know it, and definitely not in its present untaxed state. I think you have made a huge mistake and gambled with your family's long term well-being. I hope the escape from responsibility was worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So people that start up their own businesses and fail are doomed to never be employed again? While I can understand your position of liking the stability that working for someonelse can bring to you, I think that your attitude that anyone that does different than you is making mistakes pathetic. Frankly, I'm more stressed working for someone else than I am in dealing with the ups and downs of being my own boss (I don't play poker professionally, but I can see the correlations mentally between playing poker professionally and starting your own small business).

I've owned businesses and worked with a lot of small business owners. Businesses that don't need to adapt to changing marketplace within a 5 or 10 year span (ie poker fad fades etc) are a very small percentage.