Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

So playing the dime/quarter game at the Rio. Not a great table now that Moneymaker and his friend are on the other table but I'm on the table-change list so for now I'm dealing with these nits. I've been pretty quiet and probably visibly upset about getting nothing to play.

I raise A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] from EP to $100. MP caller, LP caller.

Flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (pot = $335)

I bet $250, MP raises to $700, LP folds.

MP has $1600 behind the $700, and has only been at the table for a few orbits. He hasn't played many hands yet and my spidey senses tell me he's a nit.

Just wondering what line people take here at these full ring live tables... because the one I took is so different than how I'd play at my usual aggro 6m online tables..

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

hes a nit? that's good hes got the low flush 100% of the time
get it in on the flop so u see both cards fast and painless

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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hes a nit? that's good hes got the low flush 100% of the time
get it in on the flop so u see both cards fast and painless

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That doesnt make sense, if he has a low flush 100% you should fold.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

5 words; [censored] IT IM ALL IN! (hero instashoves)

Also when 4th spade hits by river, should be highly +EV
in the longrun as it should put the nit on massive monkey tilt and thus they will never respect any oversized raises or all ins the rest of the night (is sure to pay off future dividends).

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

GO ALL IN

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

[ QUOTE ]
5 words; [censored] IT IM ALL IN! (hero instashoves)

Also when 4th spade hits by river, should be highly +EV
in the longrun as it should put the nit on massive monkey tilt and thus they will never respect any oversized raises or all ins the rest of the night (is sure to pay off future dividends).

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im on the table change list

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Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

oop id prefer to shove this. he can still have overpairs if hes a nit.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

push/beahead/hit11/7outs.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

Kay now lets actually think about it..

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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Kay now lets actually think about it..

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Is this not incredibly standard with villains stack??? your not folding, so..........

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

"... I hate folding..."

Well, isnt this a very standard allin shove?!

If you call and a non-spade turn hits you still dont know what to do and the pot is big by then. I just dont get it but Im very curious to hear your thoughts about the hand.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

I wouldnt fold this without a better read than "might be a nit", and shoving >>> calling

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

I'd just go all in, not be happy about it, but know that i wouldn't be able to forgive myself in the morning if i fold pocket aces1

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

I would just call.

Going all in seems to be the worst idea since either the vilain has a monster has a set or a flush, and you wont make him fold, OR he has got KKs,QQs or KsJ and giving him a free card is almost harmless.

The problem is that you wont gain much more information by calling, as shoving wont as well. Your stakes are not deep enough to reraise him unfortunately.

Calling seems ok since even in the worst scenario ie he has got already the flush, you still have 7 outs which gives you a little bit less than 5.5/1 odds and the pot offers you almost 2.5/1. I think regarding your implied odds and his stake, it is going to be profitable for you if you cacth your flush (btw, if the vilain is tight he has got probably a King high flush). Moreover, if he has got something like a set or an overpair your odds is now 4/1 which makes the call easy postflop thanks to the implied odds.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

Given that your plan is to bet/fold this flop. Would you not consider checking the flop?

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

push.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

Not so sure. Check/fold is not the right method, since your opponent could bet with a wide range of hands if you ckeck the flop. Betting is important since you need to gain some information.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

Instashove, villain has a set and u make flush on river - standard stuff

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

This is all-in or fold (you don't have the odds to call only to hit a spade on the turn), and you don't have much (any?) folding equity. If villian has a flush, you're 31.5% (w/o st flush draw). You're 35% against a set. Assuming you shove and he calls, you need 42% equity in the hand for it to be profitable. Without a better read I'd shove, but folding is probably correct. Calling is the only wrong option.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

you can call for other reasons aside from drawing.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

i'd say he has a set, but I still shove and gamboool with 11 outs twice and the $ in the pot, but live players do play rele bad and u have no reads to go on that he is a nit, u just assumed

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

I'm pretty certain that pushing this flop against a nit is -EV.

I opted to call, and c/f a 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn. My logic was that there may be some hands that he raises the flop with that I beat, but I think most of them slow down on the turn when I call the flop.

I think villain has QQ+ <1% of the time. So like the only hands I'm really ahead of here are like JxK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or JxQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]... and I just feel like he probably doesn't push the turn with these...

Like in the regular online games this is obv a no-brainer "get it in somewhere" hand but I really feel like most of the time this nit raises the flop I'm drawing to 7 outs or 11 outs vs. a big redraw. Then when he bets the turn I'm almost certainly way behind, and "save" myself $1600 while not really losing much of the equity of my hand because his turn bet tells me I didn't have a whole lot to begin with. I folded face-up, and most people at the table were like "wow" while the kid was visibly upset that he didn't get paid off as he raked in the pot.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

hmmmm...if you it in your head that hes a huge nit then how is calling better than folding?? if spade hits you get no more money from him, and if it doesnt hit you fold. Huge nits don't raise to 700 with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J in this spot.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

most live players are really bad dude gotta get it in, you don't think he'll push the turn with KsJ? lol they push the turn with KdJd trying to protect their hand

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

I really think this is push or fold, and lean toward fold vs player described

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

Its either push or flat call. If I flat call its obviously with intent to felt this no matter what happens in the end. Theres no way I fold here for 100 BB.

Pushing is a more basic standard play and I dont think its a bad one. Flat calling is obviously trying to take advantage of the fact that turn and river cards are going to make your life easier and your opp's life harder (there are really no bad turn or river cards for you hand, whereas there are many other hands that do have bad turn and river cards). Unfortunately, to counterbalance this, the opp does have position on you.

A flat call with the idea of -

a) pushing into him on any turn that is a 4th spade

b) Otherwise, c/r all-in on any other turn. If the villain checks behind, I think a c/r all-in on any river is best.

- might be better than just the standard flop all-in. Its a more sophisticated play, though im not sure if its a better one.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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Its either push or flat call. If I flat call its obviously with intent to felt this no matter what happens in the end. Theres no way I fold here for 100 BB.

Pushing is a more basic standard play and I dont think its a bad one. Flat calling is obviously trying to take advantage of the fact that turn and river cards are going to make your life easier and your opp's life harder (there are really no bad turn or river cards for you hand, whereas there are many other hands that do have bad turn and river cards). Unfortunately, to counterbalance this, the opp does have position on you.

A flat call with the idea of -

a) pushing into him on any turn that is a 4th spade

b) Otherwise, c/r all-in on any other turn. If the villain checks behind, I think a c/r all-in on any river is best.

- might be better than just the standard flop all-in. Its a more sophisticated play, though im not sure if its a better one.

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what are you even talking about

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

if you dont shove this flop you are also a nit.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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if you dont shove this flop you are also a nit.

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Lefort is not a nit. Blanket statements like this one just betray your ignorance.

Lefort, Jfish, why is this not a push or fold situation?

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

Just because if he s a nit and you push flop he will find a surnatural fold with the few hands you beat and want to put the money in with.However when you do call flop he will push turn with all his range:some of them beat you but you have outs,and you already ahead sometimes too...Right?

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

I think that you have to push because you don't KNOW he's a nit, you're making an assumption based on him sitting with you for a couple of orbits.

You always have outs and there's a chance that your hand is best. CTS is right about how bad live players are and the hands that they think they need to "protect" here are often ones that you're totally crushing.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

so whY PUSH HIM OFF IT?

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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Kay now lets actually think about it..

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i did. i still say push. i dont think its that tough. and i also feel u might be overthinking it. its live, people are stupid, they are like hrmm maybe i have best hand if not i have outs! call with TT Ts! ship it.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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Its either push or flat call. If I flat call its obviously with intent to felt this no matter what happens in the end. Theres no way I fold here for 100 BB.

Pushing is a more basic standard play and I dont think its a bad one. Flat calling is obviously trying to take advantage of the fact that turn and river cards are going to make your life easier and your opp's life harder (there are really no bad turn or river cards for you hand, whereas there are many other hands that do have bad turn and river cards). Unfortunately, to counterbalance this, the opp does have position on you.

A flat call with the idea of -

a) pushing into him on any turn that is a 4th spade

b) Otherwise, c/r all-in on any other turn. If the villain checks behind, I think a c/r all-in on any river is best.

- might be better than just the standard flop all-in. Its a more sophisticated play, though im not sure if its a better one.

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what are you even talking about

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dude everytime i post you make some annoying comment like "wtf are saying" or "what are you talking about".. etc..

Just stop. If your want to make criticism on my analysis, say it, but saying what your saying is just going to piss me off and not going to help the situation at all

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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Its either push or flat call. If I flat call its obviously with intent to felt this no matter what happens in the end. Theres no way I fold here for 100 BB.

Pushing is a more basic standard play and I dont think its a bad one. Flat calling is obviously trying to take advantage of the fact that turn and river cards are going to make your life easier and your opp's life harder (there are really no bad turn or river cards for you hand, whereas there are many other hands that do have bad turn and river cards). Unfortunately, to counterbalance this, the opp does have position on you.

A flat call with the idea of -

a) pushing into him on any turn that is a 4th spade

b) Otherwise, c/r all-in on any other turn. If the villain checks behind, I think a c/r all-in on any river is best.

- might be better than just the standard flop all-in. Its a more sophisticated play, though im not sure if its a better one.

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what are you even talking about

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dude everytime i post you make some annoying comment like "wtf are saying" or "what are you talking about".. etc..

Just stop. If your want to make criticism on my analysis, say it, but saying what your saying is just going to piss me off and not going to help the situation at all

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What are you even talking about

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

i agree with raptor here.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

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i agree with raptor here.

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yeh hes right man, youre definitely overthinking this.

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

lemme get this straight. You have AA with the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , flop comes all spades, and you're considering folding to a raise? Who's the nit here??

Re: Live 10/25 @ the WSOP... I hate folding...
 

His stack makes this an easy push.