UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

It's hot out so the kid and I are headin' out to buy me some short pants. How's about a few opinions while we spend...

You're UTG and the 3 players to your left are tightish. The blinds are loosish. Do you come in raising with..

1. AJ ?
2. KQs ?
3. 66 ?
4. A9s ?
5. AT ?
6. KJs ?
7. A8s ?
8. KTs ?
9. KQ ?
10. A7s ?
11. A9 ?
12. KJ ?
13. 55 ?
14. QJs ?
15. K9s ?

By the way this is not a random list. It is specifically ordered according to...

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

Unless the guys to my right are very loose (and I mean looser than 45VPIP) I switch tables. But if they are nice and loose I raise all of these except K9s.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

Probably raise all, K9s and 55 could easily be tossed though.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

If they're really tight (like 20/13) I raise everything here. If they adjusted/play a bit more hands pbb raise all but 55(66), A9, A7s and K9s

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

Folding any of these hands in any game that doesnt have a sick rake structure is pissing away money.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

I wouldn't raise 55 A9 A7s or K9s

6 handed is for nits though

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding any of these hands in any game that doesnt have a sick rake structure is pissing away money.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

All of these are defaults for me except A9, 55, and K9s. I would probably open 55 and K9s if the blinds are loose passive.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding any of these hands in any game that doesnt have a sick rake structure is pissing away money.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is and its not up for debate. If you cant extract value from those hands UTG you either suck at poker, pay too much rake or have bad seat/table selection.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

Exclude A9o and I´m in your camp Oink.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding any of these hands in any game that doesnt have a sick rake structure is pissing away money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I believe the tweener hands such as K9s and A9 are profitable in some games, and unprofitable in others. In a vacuum I'd say always opening A9o or K9s UTG in every game is slightly -EV, although I don't have enough hands in PT to back this up. If it is -EV in a vacuum, whether the EV lost is made up for by the laggier image it portrays is debatable.

Not trying to be a nit, I'm just wondering if I'm wrong and am too tight UTG. Do you think hands like A9o are profitable in a vacuum, or do you think the "shania" makes it profitable?

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

I don't think any of us have enough of a sample size to know for sure. well, maybe sethy does [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

fwiw I don't think it really matters whether your UTG cutoff is A9o vs ATo, A7s vs A8s, K9s vs KTs, etc. saying that it's pissing away money seems like an overstatement since these are such marginal hands in this position that it can't be very + or - EV in either direction.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

Where is the fun in online debating if you dont get to overstate your opinions..? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyways. I dont mind folding A9o, KJo and K9s at a lot of tables. I think folding 66 on most tables is bad. I would much rather play 55 than KJo

I have no idea how much Shania affects the EV. I also think it should be mentioned that a lot of sites has contributed payout methods of rb and/or bonus and/or vip points which should make the tweeners more playable.

Some results from 500k DB. Far from significant.

44-77: 162 trials, 0.09. With 44 a looser.

A6s-A9s: 112 trials 0.06 with A7s and A6s being a looser

ATo-A8o: 243 trials 0.20 all winners

KJs-K8s: 118 trials (0.02) all close to EV neutral

KQo-KTo: 224 trials 0.22 with KTo loosing

QJs-Q9s: 78 trials 0.31 with QJs being the looser

JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s: 150 trials 0.15 with T8s, 98s and 87s all loosing slightly.

Obviously a small sample size but as long as I am winning I am playing them. Oh, and I am really bad at adjusting to table conditions.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding any of these hands in any game that doesnt have a sick rake structure is pissing away money.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is and its not up for debate. If you cant extract value from those hands UTG you either suck at poker, pay too much rake or have bad seat/table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this is true. There are hundreds of great tables where opening a hand like 55 UTG is clearly a suboptimal play. I probably fold it as a default on most tables - usually 66 is my UTG cutoff for opening.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would much rather play 55 than KJo

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it would be hard to find people to agree with this statement. KJ is countless times easier to play and has almost got to have a higher BB/hand from UTG. Not near PT right now.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding any of these hands in any game that doesnt have a sick rake structure is pissing away money.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is and its not up for debate. If you cant extract value from those hands UTG you either suck at poker, pay too much rake or have bad seat/table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this is true. There are hundreds of great tables where opening a hand like 55 UTG is clearly a suboptimal play. I probably fold it as a default on most tables - usually 66 is my UTG cutoff for opening.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a serious note.

What empirical evidence do you have to back up this statement? I am guessing none. Your line of reasoning is dangerous. You think its difficult to play OOP against a bunch of coldcallers so it must be -EV right?

The truth is as yourface pointed out. We dont know! We just dont. You dont and I dont. Now I was of course overstating my opinions but from a scientific point of view its not particular clever to claim that " There are hundreds of great tables where opening a hand like 55 UTG is clearly a suboptimal play." without any evidence at all. And then continuing on with stating that 66 is good enough to open...

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would much rather play 55 than KJo

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it would be hard to find people to agree with this statement. KJ is countless times easier to play and has almost got to have a higher BB/hand from UTG. Not near PT right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stoxtrader. But what does he know...

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

Does stoxy play KJo UTG? What about KTo in the HJ?

IIRC King Yao advocates usually folding KTo in the HJ, and possibly KJo UTG.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does stoxy play KJo UTG? What about KTo in the HJ?

IIRC King Yao advocates usually folding KTo in the HJ, and possibly KJo UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

In most of his vids he whines about KJo UTG and yet he opens with it fairly often with the words "I think I have a postflop edge". He always mucks KTo in the HJ in the vids I have seen.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

OK guys, got the shorts on and life is cooling down for the peg...in the peg.

The hands I posted were from my newfound, arguably useless, list of heads-up starters. They list as follows according to strength against the deck heads-up.

1. AJ - 63.47%
2. KQs - 63.43
3. 66 - 63.27

4. A9s - 62.75
5. AT - 62.72
6. KJs - 62.50

7. A8s - 61.93
8. KTs - 61.79
9. KQ - 61.47

10. A7s - 61.00
11. A9 - 60.80
12. KJ - 60.64
13. 55 - 60.32
14. QJs - 60.22
15. K9s - 60.01

I realize that hands play differently. But these numbers don't lie. Heads-up these percentages reflect the likelihood of defeating random holdings with random flops. I don't want to go math freak here but it looks to me like all things being equal there is a significant gap between 66 and A9, and again between KJs and A8s, and once again KQ and A7s.

I agree that the slightness in EV makes these things less than crucial. But I'm trying like heck to establish some comfortable defaults.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

The fact that the shorthanded forums have developed (still-evolving) unofficial standards based on everyone's individual PT stats is where I would base my thoughts. We don't all play exactly the same, but compared to others in the game, a lot of us play insanely similar - and for a decision like what to do with 55 UTG I don't think this matters that much anyway. Nobody here is folding 77 UTG and everybody is folding 33 UTG, so you saying "if you can't turn a profit w/ 55 UTG you must be terrible" is clearly an incorrect statement.

Furthermore, empirical evidence aside - yes, being at a table where multiple coldcallers behind are very likely is reason enough for me to assume playing 55 UTG will be -EV. Think about what you do on different flops and turns, and how often you're actually going to be in a situation you like as opposed to one where you're either calling down with third pair or folding the best hand.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
He always mucks KTo in the HJ in the vids I have seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember the last time I mucked KTo in the HJ or KJo UTG. I might start mucking KTo if 2 players better than me are doing it.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He always mucks KTo in the HJ in the vids I have seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember the last time I mucked KTo in the HJ or KJo UTG. I might start mucking KTo if 2 players better than me are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost always muck KTo in HJ, so make that 3 [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

I raise all of them, but no my sample size in my current DB is not large enough yet (only 130k hands since late March [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] lol donkaments and SNG's) to evaluate the EV.

I also raise KJo UTG and KTo HJ often/almost always, and KTo/QJo UTG sometimes. It's hard work getting the PFR to 21, kids...

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also raise KJo UTG and KTo HJ often/almost always, and KTo/QJo UTG sometimes. It's hard work getting the PFR to 21, kids...

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm ever thought about loosening up in the CO, OTB and 3betting more in the SB instead of raising more UTG?

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

"I can't remember the last time I mucked KTo in the HJ or KJo UTG. I might start mucking KTo if 2 players better than me are doing it"

And what your PT say about this hand??

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also raise KJo UTG and KTo HJ often/almost always, and KTo/QJo UTG sometimes. It's hard work getting the PFR to 21, kids...

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm ever thought about loosening up in the CO, OTB and 3betting more in the SB instead of raising more UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I do plenty of that as well, though I think I play somewhat tighter on the button than do many here - if you remove the "steal" possibility from "blind steal", you're just raising in position with 9 hi...

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He always mucks KTo in the HJ in the vids I have seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember the last time I mucked KTo in the HJ or KJo UTG. I might start mucking KTo if 2 players better than me are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave up on KJo/utg and KTo/hj a while ago. I used to advocate raising this hands in those spots. Now I fold them with no reads becuz I havent been successful with those hands. Im sure my sample size is still inadequate but thats what Im doing now. KJo utg and KTo hj are now read based plays for me. They are no longer defaults.

BTW I almost never play A9o utg, I fold K9s and 55's utg most of the time also. For those who think thats a big deal, I laugh, cuz it doesnt matter.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I almost never play A9o utg, I fold K9s and 55's utg most of the time also. For those who think thats a big deal, I laugh, cuz it doesnt matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most important takeaway from this thread - these hands are fractions of a BB + or - EV either way. I would say that these hands do tend to be pretty high variance, so if tilt is an issue, probably best to dump em.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at 'hot and cold' equity as the end all be all in this situation is a pretty severe conceptual error. Even though KTo is a 'better' hand that JTs, I'd much rather have the latter because it plays much cleaner post flop. To put it another way, you probably drag more pots with KTo, but the pots you win with JTs will tend to be larger, and by an amount large enough to make up the difference comfortably.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW I almost never play A9o utg, I fold K9s and 55's utg most of the time also. For those who think thats a big deal, I laugh, cuz it doesnt matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most important takeaway from this thread - these hands are fractions of a BB + or - EV either way. I would say that these hands do tend to be pretty high variance, so if tilt is an issue, probably best to dump em.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also like to add that I would certainly raise with all those borderline hands If the possibility of winning the blinds was higher than normal. However since I choose not to play in those type of games, I generally dont raise with those hands Ive mentioned.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at 'hot and cold' equity as the end all be all in this situation is a pretty severe conceptual error. Even though KTo is a 'better' hand that JTs, I'd much rather have the latter because it plays much cleaner post flop. To put it another way, you probably drag more pots with KTo, but the pots you win with JTs will tend to be larger, and by an amount large enough to make up the difference comfortably.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is admittedly fault in taking the math too far, or in using the math exclusively. There is also fault in assuming that the pot will be heads-up as KT drops in value 3-way and JTs surpasses it.

I'm not sure as to the severity of misconception based on the cleanliness of play? May that not be subjective bias based on one's playing style? The fact remains that if we play the 2 hands against each other repeatedly, heads-up, KT will eventually get all the money because it is stronger.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]

I would also like to add that I would certainly raise with all those borderline hands If the possibility of winning the blinds was higher than normal. However since I choose not to play in those type of games, I generally dont raise with those hands Ive mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, that was my post. Didnt realize that name was logged in.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He always mucks KTo in the HJ in the vids I have seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember the last time I mucked KTo in the HJ or KJo UTG. I might start mucking KTo if 2 players better than me are doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave up on KJo/utg and KTo/hj a while ago. I used to advocate raising this hands in those spots. Now I fold them with no reads becuz I havent been successful with those hands. Im sure my sample size is still inadequate but thats what Im doing now. KJo utg and KTo hj are now read based plays for me. They are no longer defaults.

BTW I almost never play A9o utg, I fold K9s and 55's utg most of the time also. For those who think thats a big deal, I laugh, cuz it doesnt matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

the A9o K9s 55 type hands are about where I draw the line too. usually I muck them online and play them live because I dont think it matters a ton either way, live players suck and dont 3bet me nearly as much as they should, and I get really bored playing live. I think I open everything else on your list.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK so I guess me opening JTs and QTs sometimes UTG is no good...

[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is down at 57.51% heads-up against the deck. Way overated shorthanded.

QTs is 59.44%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at 'hot and cold' equity as the end all be all in this situation is a pretty severe conceptual error. Even though KTo is a 'better' hand that JTs, I'd much rather have the latter because it plays much cleaner post flop. To put it another way, you probably drag more pots with KTo, but the pots you win with JTs will tend to be larger, and by an amount large enough to make up the difference comfortably.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is admittedly fault in taking the math too far, or in using the math exclusively. There is also fault in assuming that the pot will be heads-up as KT drops in value 3-way and JTs surpasses it.

I'm not sure as to the severity of misconception based on the cleanliness of play? May that not be subjective bias based on one's playing style? The fact remains that if we play the 2 hands against each other repeatedly, heads-up, KT will eventually get all the money because it is stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Comparing KTo directly to JTs is not really fair because of domination - obviously it's going to be very difficult for JTs to make up the preflop -EQ HU vs. KTo postflop.

In the actual play of hands, there are a lot more flops and especially turns that you can play really aggressively with JTs - similarly, you are somewhat less likely to make second best hands that 'have' to pay off. The playability of the suited+connectedness of JTs far outweighs the (very limited) big card strength of KTo.

You make your money on the BB streets, and JTs makes more strongly betable hands, whereas when you catch a piece of the flop with KTo, you're not especially sanguine about getting lots of action. This is something of a NL concept that translates somewhat to 6-max because the size of pots PF tend to be relatively small compared to the ending pots if the hand gets to SD.

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

i try to play more hands because i m 26/18(something like that).
And when i see some i fold KJo utg or KTo mdp i don't understand WTF are you 30/20 and play range preflop like that??

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

dont try and bring up your vpip/pfr by opening a wider range from early position

the way to do it is stealing more from LP and defending your blinds more

Re: UTG standards...with warm legs...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think hands like A9o are profitable in a vacuum, or do you think the "shania" makes it profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]
A9o UTG has negative Shania. To balance your UTG play you need hands that don't work with ace-high flops.