Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Note, I also posted something similar as a reply in the Ladies WSOP event thread in the Tournament Circuit/WSOP section, but decided to start a dedicated thread here about it, as after some thought I figured this might be a better place to discuss/debate this issue.

If this is the wrong venue, sorry about that, and if it is in the wrong forum, can one of the mods please move the thread to the right forum? Thank you.


Well, she's done it again ... Annie Duke opens her mouth .... and inserts foot.

http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/25320


Click on the June 12th Annie Duke Interview link to the right once you get there.


Annie goes on and on in the interview about how 'degrading' the Ladies WSOP event is to women in general (she also takes the time with this interview, to run Doyle Brunson down as well, saying in effect the only way he can win now is in the Seniors event). However, here's the irony here given her stance about having segregated events for women only, just this past week, she was an instructor who TAUGHT the Women ONLY Poker school!


Regardless of the readers here views about WOEs (Women Only Events), think about that point there.


IF Annie REALLY feels like she does, then what business did she have accepting a position as a teacher, teaching the women's ONLY poker school sessions?


Logic dictates that if she thinks that it's an insult to have a Women's only event, then she should feel that a women's only poker school is the same kind of insult. Geez, given her stance and her statements about WOE's, is she then saying that she thinks that women are not as smart as men, and have to be taught in segregated poker school classes??


(She even bragged in the interview on how when she was there at the Women's Poker School, that she was able to talk several women there when she was teaching the classes, out of playing in the WSOP Ladies Event, and how she's trying now very hard to have the Ladies WSOP event and the Seniors event eliminated from the World Series. In fact Annie who's on the WSOP advisory council, well it's appears from her statements like it's her mission in life to ruin it for the women (and the seniors too) who DO want to play in that type of event)


I mean don't get me wrong here, she has every right to her views, but who died and made her Queen of the world (and gave her the right to use her position on the WSOP advisory committee to try to force taking away the Ladies event from the WSOP list of events)?

I know one thing is for sure, she's not speaking for me and many other women out there when it comes to NOT having the event in the first place at the WSOP.


While I tend to play WOEs myself just for fun, I do think there is a place for the WOE events for the women just coming into poker. If the majority of women thought (as she does) that it was an insult to women to play in the event, why then please, has it doubled and doubled again in the last few years. If a majority of women felt as she did, then the event numbers would be going down instead of up, and the event would no longer be held due to lack of interest. Last I checked, I and several other women (the majority I am thinking) did not give her OUR voice to speak for us, that's for sure.


If as she says that (the reason why the numbers are going up instead of down is because) it's an 'Easy Bracelet' then heck, why doesn't she (and several other Women Pro players who sing the same tune as she does about WOEs) jump in with both feet and win this 'easy bracelet event'? If her logic is correct (that's an easy bracelet), then we should always see an all pro final table at the Ladies Only WSOP, with out a single amature female present there.


So, given her stance about Women only events, where did we see that she spent 3 days of the World Series timeframe? Yep, you guessed it, as there she was, teaching the women's only poker school, and Annie who says its insulting for women to be segregated, yet she's teaching a 'segregated' poker school session for Women only? Yeah right.


Like I said she's entitled to her opinions, but let's get real. Wave a little money under Annie's nose to teach the women's ONLY poker school classes, and boom she's there.


IMO, what a hypocrite!


Comments, opinions?

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Annie Duke - who cares?

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

very, very hypocritical.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

kinda like the WNBA

HEY AT LEAST THEY HAVE GOOD FUNDAMENTALS, AMIRITE?

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Comment/opinion: Read a few paragraphs, chuckled to myself and said "haha yeah she's an idiot" and skipped the rest. Standard.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

First.

Trying to form a logical argument to counter something annie duke says can, at times, be pointless.

Barry

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

So why should poker be segregated again? Poker is poker, it is not a gender specific activity. Not to stand up for ms Duke (because i am not exactly fond of her) but I can see the difference between having a ladies only class and event. The ladies only class can focus on topics related to being a female in the Poker world, and how to maximise certain male tendenacies etc etc. Ladies only circuits such a LIPS etc, are fine because they are not the major league anyways, but when we get to a "major" event like the WSOP(dont even get me started) there is no need for segregation. I can understand the need for a WNBA, but in the poker world, im not really seeing it.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Annie Duke - who cares?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah no doubt. I've thought Annie was an idiot for years. I put absolutely zero stock in anything she says.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Why is she even on the advisory board? Her stupid opinions shouldn't matter.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Wow, I don't know if I'm supposed to read the entire thread.

OP is beyond retarded.

"(she also takes the time with this interview, to run Doyle Brunson down as well, saying in effect the only way he can win now is in the Seniors event)."

This is effectively the opposite of what she's saying.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
So why should poker be segregated again? Poker is poker, it is not a gender specific activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The entire Series is promotional. If the hosts want to have an event only for Screen Actors Guild members, they can.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean don't get me wrong here, she has every right to her views, but who died and made her Queen of the world (and gave her the right to use her position on the WSOP advisory committee to try to force taking away the Ladies event from the WSOP list of events)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you [censored] serious? People on the board should only be allowed to voice majority opinions?

[ QUOTE ]
While I tend to play WOEs myself just for fun, I do think there is a place for the WOE events for the women just coming into poker. If the majority of women thought (as she does) that it was an insult to women to play in the event, why then please, has it doubled and doubled again in the last few years. If a majority of women felt as she did, then the event numbers would be going down instead of up, and the event would no longer be held due to lack of interest. Last I checked, I and several other women (the majority I am thinking) did not give her OUR voice to speak for us, that's for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's extremely obvious that all events will grow bigger given the huge growth of the poker market as a whole. Does she even say that a majority of women feel the way she does? Also, your logic on majority of women and the growth of WOEs is fallacious.
Who cares what a bunch of other women thinks? She voices her opinion, and I'm glad she does, because she does sound like a sound person.


[ QUOTE ]
If as she says that (the reason why the numbers are going up instead of down is because) it's an 'Easy Bracelet' then heck, why doesn't she (and several other Women Pro players who sing the same tune as she does about WOEs) jump in with both feet and win this 'easy bracelet event'? If her logic is correct (that's an easy bracelet), then we should always see an all pro final table at the Ladies Only WSOP, with out a single amature female present there.

[/ QUOTE ]

She won't play it because she feels it's degrading. This has been established. Also, your understanding of poker is at best 10 strokes above par.

[ QUOTE ]
So, given her stance about Women only events, where did we see that she spent 3 days of the World Series timeframe? Yep, you guessed it, as there she was, teaching the women's only poker school, and Annie who says its insulting for women to be segregated, yet she's teaching a 'segregated' poker school session for Women only? Yeah right.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, it seemed from the interview that her stance was that it's degrading to host a WOE as it is like saying "so that the women will win the something" or something to that effect. Annie says outright that she does NOT feel the idea of WOEs is degrading, just the whole idea with the awarding the winner a bracelet seems to bother her. I don't share her view here, I think that WOEs or senior events or any other events are always degrading.
Her stance is perfectly in line with helping out to increase female interest in the game of poker, I think this is very simple to understand.

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said she's entitled to her opinions, but let's get real. Wave a little money under Annie's nose to teach the women's ONLY poker school classes, and boom she's there.

[/ QUOTE ]

What she said about being paid little to do this doesn't sound too unlikely, you know. Some people actually have ideals.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Her being against the WOE at the WSOP and running a women only poker school is not contradictory in the slightest.

Last i heard, when talking academic studies - where women and men are taught seperately they tend to do better overall - this is due to several reasons, but a different teaching style is a big reason (women learn better by observing, and men learn better by doing).

Further, poker DEFINATELY needs more women players - and if her poker school does that, then great.

How many groups of housewifes/sororities etc wouldnt learn the game if they had men there (in their mind 'judging' them).

I dunno if the concept works, but if it does then great.

But being against WOEs is NOT the polar opposite - one teaches women to play the game on the same level, the other teaches women that they arent good enough to play the game on the same level.

Also, she is right that the senior and women events are stupid

Didnt read link, but it appears from what someone else said she didnt say Doyle could only win such an event - and either way he won a non senior event last year - the 6 handed NL if memory serves.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So why should poker be segregated again? Poker is poker, it is not a gender specific activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The entire Series is promotional. If the hosts want to have an event only for Screen Actors Guild members, they can.

[/ QUOTE ]

What they can and will do is irrelevant to the fact what one might feel they should do.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

The Ledermans should have stopped with Howard.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Annie Duke - who cares?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Phil, fyi, the link at the beginning in my Original post, is to access the Video interview that Annie gave to Cardplayer Magazine.

As for the Ladies WSOP event, let the ladies vote with their feet. If they don't want it, find it degrading, then they simply won't play it, period. Same with the seniors.

My point about the poker school was, that if she feels that having a women's only event was wrong at the world series, and that's why she boycotts it, then having a women's only poker school should be wrong, and she should be boycotting (teaching) it as well as speaking out against having a womens only poker school.

To do otherwise, is IMO, hypocritical to say the least.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Ledermans should have stopped with Howard.

[/ QUOTE ]

?
http://www.22oldbuildings.co.uk/Defa...D=36&lID=0

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Cindy, try thinking for a change.

She apparently wants to do as much as possible to ensure that more women play the wonderful game of poker, the poker school sounds like a fantastic way to do this.
Do you think she considers the women who attend to be school to be debasing themselves for attending?
Of course not!

Will it make it easier to understand if I put this in caps?

THE ONLY THING SHE SEEMED TO THINK WAS DEGRADING WAS THE FACT THAT HARRAH'S/THE WSOP AWARDS BRACELETS TO WOMEN IN AN EVENT THAT ONLY WOMEN CAN COMPETE IN.

And how on earth can you have the views you have on the to be or not to be of this event?
To let everyone decide for themselves is exactly what we have now! Some people, me included, feel it's time to stop treating women as lesser poker players just based on gender.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
she also takes the time with this interview, to run Doyle Brunson down as well, saying in effect the only way he can win now is in the Seniors event). However,
Comments, opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]
If I watched the same vid you did she obv. was kidding, or being facetious when she said that about Doyle.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Haven't read the article yet, but to OP: What you've described is not hypocrisy. A class for women makes plenty of sense in that female players may benefit from receiving instruction and advice about how to succeed in a male-dominated game. It does not imply that women are inferior to have separate instruction geared toward them, as their male opponents often change their play and make certain assumptions about them because they're female.

A women's poker tournament, on the other hand, suggests that women need to be given the opportunity to play only against each other because they can't compete with the men.

FWIW I really don't like Annie Duke, but she doesn't appear to be a hypocrite based on CincyLady's description.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

That's fine, and you know what, I agree with what you are saying about the poker school. It is a good oppportunity to get more women to play in mixed events.

I'm simply saying that with her line of thought, that it's very hypocritical for her to be instructing the women in a women's only format.

She says that the reason she doesn't want the WOEs is because poker is poker and uses our brains which are equal to men's (and I do agree, intelectually, we are equal), so we shouldn't have special events just for women (or seniors for that matter).

What I'm saying here is for someone who has that point of view, to then go and teach at a women's only seminar is hypocritical and counter productive to her message that women shouldn't be segregated.

If she really feels that way, then she should be teaching the women at a mixed poker school seminar, and perhaps helping them with scholorships or something to get them to attend.

[ QUOTE ]

And how on earth can you have the views you have on the to be or not to be of this event?
To let everyone decide for themselves is exactly what we have now! Some people, me included, feel it's time to stop treating women as lesser poker players just based on gender.


[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I and a majority of others don't feel like we are being treated as lessor players because of our gender.

We enjoy playing in the events, as I and several others find there is a different more friendly tone playing those events, than in mixed events.

In other words, they are fun to play.

One other food for thought item here about the Poker School. If she was concerned about getting more women to play in mixed events, then why didn't she donate an entry to say a $1,500 event, instead of the prize for the tourney at the end of the classes, being into the Ladies $1,000 event?

That IMO, would of really encoraged women to sign up for the mixed events.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

OP is pretty illogical with objections. Women-only schools provide a "judgement" free environment that allows a venue to bring more and more people to a game that could otherwise prove too overwhelming. This is no different than having a special class for teens/kids/minorities/genders to learn chess or darts - there's a very big difference between having a "safe" place to learn and a completely segregated competition that allows huge cash prizes (not to mention a "bracelet" that is apparently equivalent in worth).

Female-only events obviously have good intentions but fail in their execution .. they're condescending, outdated and unfair. Attacking Annie Duke's questionable credentials says little about her arguments.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Isn't there a Seniors event as well at the WSOP? Get rid of the Ladies events, the Sr event should go too.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

The concept of a women's WSOP event is horrible.

The same login that begets this event should lead to other fun stuff, like an all Vietnamese event.

I'm not bothering to read anything (and this isn't really the right forum for this, but I won't move it) but I'm pretty sure I agree with Annie's basic premise. There's nothing about being a woman that makes poker harder, and having a seperate woman's event is stupid and insulting.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

1. There are some things that women only can be taught. Like how to handle being part of a minority in the poker world. That does not apply to men, and thus does cannot be taught in mixed classes. Furthermore women, in my experience, less likely to jump to a challenge they're not prepared for than men are. That is, I find it very likely that women in general might need a little bit more encouragement to start playing. This is all very broad and general, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
Funny, I and a majority of others don't feel like we are being treated as lessor players because of our gender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you are. There's even a special event for your kind only.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

Did anyone watch the WSOP FT for the Ladies event? It was horrible and hardly what I consider "poker playing" and probably set back women in poker a couple of years.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Logic dictates that if she thinks that it's an insult to have a Women's only event, then she should feel that a women's only poker school is the same kind of insult.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not very good at logic.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is she even on the advisory board? Her stupid opinions shouldn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a horrid 4 letter word to describe people like her

[/ QUOTE ]
WSOP?

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

She is so insane. I even heard she traded her family for some meat.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
So why should poker be segregated again? Poker is poker, it is not a gender specific activity. Not to stand up for ms Duke (because i am not exactly fond of her) but I can see the difference between having a ladies only class and event. The ladies only class can focus on topics related to being a female in the Poker world, and how to maximise certain male tendenacies etc etc. Ladies only circuits such a LIPS etc, are fine because they are not the major league anyways, but when we get to a "major" event like the WSOP(dont even get me started) there is no need for segregation. I can understand the need for a WNBA, but in the poker world, im not really seeing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

women arent as smart as men, they need a seperate event to be fair

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So why should poker be segregated again? Poker is poker, it is not a gender specific activity. Not to stand up for ms Duke (because i am not exactly fond of her) but I can see the difference between having a ladies only class and event. The ladies only class can focus on topics related to being a female in the Poker world, and how to maximise certain male tendenacies etc etc. Ladies only circuits such a LIPS etc, are fine because they are not the major league anyways, but when we get to a "major" event like the WSOP(dont even get me started) there is no need for segregation. I can understand the need for a WNBA, but in the poker world, im not really seeing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

women arent as smart as men, they need a seperate event to be fair

[/ QUOTE ]

While I didn't hold this opinion before reading the op, I do now.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

I guess she's a hypocrite for using women's only bathrooms, too. If that analogy doesn't make sense to you, you're on to something.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Ledermans should have stopped with Howard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's Howard Lederman?

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

However, here's the irony here given her stance about having segregated events for women only,

[/ QUOTE ]

more irony...

she wrote a book titled, "How I Raised, Folded, Bluffed, Flirted, Cursed And Won Millions at the World Series of Poker"

the "millions" she won was when she got extremely lucky in a 10-handed Sit N' Go against Phil in the T.O.C.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

segregated competition = bad

segregated instruction = not so bad

this is pretty easy to follow.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

wow, has she put a few pounds on her cheeks or is it just me?

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
segregated competition = bad

segregated instruction = not so bad

this is pretty easy to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]
+1

having a segregated competition in a non physical "sport" is degrading. having segregated teaching among your peers (in this case women) is standard.

OP seems hysterical.

Re: Annie Duke Interview Controversy regarding Ladies WSOP event.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The concept of a women's WSOP event is horrible.

The same login that begets this event should lead to other fun stuff, like an all Vietnamese event.

I'm not bothering to read anything (and this isn't really the right forum for this, but I won't move it) but I'm pretty sure I agree with Annie's basic premise. There's nothing about being a woman that makes poker harder, and having a seperate woman's event is stupid and insulting.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree with this a lot. here is why.

Think of things as if you were a woman. Would you really be all that comfortable trying out a game that is a bunch of loud, generally douchey males who will be as sexist as humanly possible while you are at the table?

With a womens only event, a few things happen:
a) women feel more comfortable getting into an activity (poker) when they feel like they are in a comfortable environment. ie. not being berated by a bunch of sexist retard douches. i mean, you watch the behavior of people in the ladies event and they are having a good time and generally being about 50x nicer than a normal poker game. This is a good way to get people excited about what many of us feel is a pretty awesome game.
b) making people comfortable makes them like the game more and get interested. I always think of that one espn final table with that TOTAL [censored] douchebag, Brandon Cantu. Can you how many more people would be drawn to poker if the environment was inviting and comfortable as opposed to abrasive and incredibly unpleasant. imagine if you were new to poker and had someone berating you every hand? I know it happens all the time, but it still sucks. I know one of the reasons I play so little live poker is that it is incredibly annoying to listen to retard table coaches berate the fish all day.
c) not having a womens event just makes it more difficult for women to gain entry into what has historically been an incredibly male heavy game. This event is a brilliant marketing move because it makes a game more accessible to a group that is so massively under represented in the game.
d) I know my girlfriend and many others have gotten more into poker as a result of this event and I really see no problem with it. As i posted last week, Annie is a moron for passing up such a massively +ev event. Additionally, it is funny to me that she would say things like this, because annie strikes me as one of those complete douchebags that many of the women who enter this event are trying to avoid.

Just because something is sexist in its practices doesnt mean it is "wrong". the sexism here is allowing a group that has trouble getting into the game with a venue where they can give it a shot. I mean, if we think about it, the reason women are underrepresented in the first place is a result of sexism in the past. I know this event is sexist, but it is the most effective way to boost the numbers of women who generally play non-womens events in the future. Whereas with dids' vietnamese example this would obviously make no sense, be completely pointless and accomplish nothing.