Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

With Phil's record setting # of cashes and now bracelets does this cement him as the World's best No Limit player?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

...no.

You have to be a winning cash player too in order to even wince at that title.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...no.

You have to be a winning cash player too in order to even wince at that title.

[/ QUOTE ]

No Limit is not even the favorite game of the cash gamers today.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...no.

You have to be a winning cash player too in order to even wince at that title.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooooo, hellmuth isnt a winning cash player? Hes not good enough?
He might be good enough to beat 1/2, maybe 2/4 and possibly 3/6 if he runs good. But then again....he might not be good enough he just wins tournaments. or are you trying to say he has to beat the highest stakes possible to be a winning cash player?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With Phil's record setting # of cashes and now bracelets does this cement him as the World's best No Limit player?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a gimmick account right????? lolololol

Phil is probably one of the top 3 NL tourney players against a weak field that is typified by the WSOP. Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

As a NL cash player Phil is a player that pros love to have at their tables, a tourney donk who thinks he can play the same way in a cash games as a tournament.

Cant believe I even wasted time to write this.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With Phil's record setting # of cashes and now bracelets does this cement him as the World's best No Limit player?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a gimmick account right????? lolololol

Phil is probably one of the top 3 NL tourney players against a weak field that is typified by the WSOP. Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

As a NL cash player Phil is a player that pros love to have at their tables, a tourney donk who thinks he can play the same way in a cash games as a tournament.

Cant believe I even wasted time to write this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just about every big name poker pro was in this event....isn't that good enough??

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...no.

You have to be a winning cash player too in order to even wince at that title.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooooo, hellmuth isnt a winning cash player? Hes not good enough?
He might be good enough to beat 1/2, maybe 2/4 and possibly 3/6 if he runs good. But then again....he might not be good enough he just wins tournaments. or are you trying to say he has to beat the highest stakes possible to be a winning cash player?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be considered the best; I think you need to beat the highest stakes....or is that not right?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

lol am i getting leveled?

1. pro:amateur ratio
2. yes, no limit is more popular than limit now
3. you have an argument if you say he's the best no limit hold'em tournament player.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

Phil has done extremely well the last two years at the WPT Championship at Bellagio. Also, I'm pretty sure a few good players play in these WSOP events, but I can't be certain.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

[/ QUOTE ]

like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

He has now won 11 bracelets at the WSOP. All in hold-em. I would think its at least possible that he would be in consideration for best hold em player.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

18th in 07, 50th in 06, 20th in 03 in WPT Championship

No final tables, but not exactly run over either.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

Worlds best Texas Hold'em tournament player, without question.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Worlds best No Limit Texas Hold'em tournament player, without question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Worlds best No Limit Texas Hold'em tournament player, without question.

[/ QUOTE ]

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I dunno about best. He might be. But most certainly he is one of the very best in this category...I don't think anyone would leave him out of a top five NL tournament player of all time list. He can be a jerk, but his skills are undeniable.

Plus his television appearances have made a bunch of future donks the weakest/tightest players in the world by making them think they ought to forgo small edges in favor of outplaying the field at a later point [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

i just want to hear from the online pros who played with him last 2 weeks and kept posting played with phil, wow is he terrible, great to see that you guys won 700k and a bracelet in the video game version

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

Win world's largest tourney = besting massed mediocre players...once

Beat world's biggest cash game = besting elite few consistently

Which is greater achievement?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Win world's largest tourney = besting massed mediocre players...once

Beat world's biggest cash game = besting elite few consistently

Which is greater achievement?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not even like helmuth but when does he say he is the best nl cash game player, he always says best nl tournament player

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

This might be one of the worst threads ever.

Is Phil Hellmuth the best Hold'em Player ever? No, not close.
Is Phil Hellmuth the best NL Hold'em Player ever? No, not close.
Is Phil Hellmuth the best Tournament Player ever? Hard to really quantify this. But probably not.
Is Phil Hellmuth the best LIVE NL Hold'em Tournament Player? Yes.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

I'd agree he is an incredibly good NL Tournament player. Top 5 definately, but gambling is not a game where you can always judge so easily.

I can give you a range of where I believe he falls in NLHE MTT players, but I can't put him on an exact # :P

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

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like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

[/ QUOTE ]

Most pros believe that nobody including amateurs in the field was a bigger than 3/2 dog in the heads up championship. Single elimination and fairly quick blinds lead to a high variance outcome.

Tournament of champions result is great, but realize Steve Danneman got there also FWIW.

Phil's a great tournament player, and had one of the most impressive WSOP in recent memory last year with all his Final tables/Cashes/Braclet. But to say this guy should legitametly be considered for greatest NL holdem player in the world is a joke when High stake cash pros salivate when he comes in the game. Again if you understand NL holdem to a modest degree and watched the second season of HSP you would understand how bad he got punked on that show.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

[/ QUOTE ]

like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

[/ QUOTE ]
to be fair, those were freerolls. WPT events are tougher to win as most of these WSOP events are filled with online donks that got there by satellites.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

"You've gotta give Phil credit for winning eleven bracelets, all in hold'em," Doyle said. "I think Phil is the best tournament hold'em player in the world."


If Doyle says it, its good enough for me.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

[/ QUOTE ]

like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

[/ QUOTE ]
to be fair, those were freerolls. WPT events are tougher to win as most of these WSOP events are filled with online donks that got there by satellites.

[/ QUOTE ]


0 people who entered the WSOP event Phil played in this week came in through online satellites. Where did you come up with this stuff?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

wpt is not phils specialty , he is not an expert at the pre flop all in game , he wants to use his post flop skills to win, not hope to win coin flips all in
world series actually allows some play

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
wpt is not phils specialty , he is not an expert at the pre flop all in game , he wants to use his post flop skills to win, not hope to win coin flips all in
world series actually allows some play

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WPT provide a ton of play up until the final table, where the structure totally changes for TV reasons. If anything they provide more Postflop play then almost all WSOP events considering the small starting stacks of most WSOP tourneys. And to say phil is not an expert of Preflop play is pretty retarted, he prefers to play small ball and play small pots; but he knows how to play either way.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
wpt is not phils specialty , he is not an expert at the pre flop all in game , he wants to use his post flop skills to win, not hope to win coin flips all in
world series actually allows some play

[/ QUOTE ]
There is some terrible analysis on this thread. 10k WPT events have a ton of play. The structure of those events is 100x better than a 1.5k buy-in WSOP event. It isn't even close.

The knock on Phil used to be that he accumulated bracelets when they were easier to get. Now apparently, it is just that he kills the donks.

I don't much like Phil's table antics (they don't get more appealing up close), but you have to admit his accomplishments are insanely great. Most cashes and most bracelets are significant achievements. Like him or not, you have to give him his due.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

I love hearing people who havent played in $10k events say which is better and which isnt. WPT events generally play super deep until TV table with a few biggish jumps. The WSOP ME plays very deep most of the way, the prelims do not. Phil is one of the top live nlhe tournament players, along with a lot of other people you have to include in the argument. Many of whom arent even big TV names.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

Phil only plays in a few WPT tournaments a year.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
wpt is not phils specialty , he is not an expert at the pre flop all in game , he wants to use his post flop skills to win, not hope to win coin flips all in
world series actually allows some play

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously. Your not being serious are you?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

When speaking of the national heads up championship, if you mean "$25,000 buy in" when you say "freeroll," then absolutely.

Winning a bracelet is not easy. There are plenty of top cash game pros who dont have one, or only have one or two. And to all the haters, phil also has several limit holdem bracelets.

I think he is the best tournament player behind stu ungar.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

The HU tourney is a joke. The structure is terrible, it is predominantly luck. It really shouldn't be mentioned.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

I wanted Gavin to win this year. HU tourney is a joke. I agree.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.



like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

[/ QUOTE ]

That's too funny.

But I guess he is one of the best nl holdem tournament players but there are still several players I would rate ahead of him.
I dont think he is even close to players like Jc Tran or Nam Lee and etc etc.

And no the best players don't generally play all the 1500 events. Some dont play them at all.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.



like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

[/ QUOTE ]

That's too funny.

But I guess he is one of the best nl holdem tournament players but there are still several players I would rate ahead of him.
I dont think he is even close to players like Jc Tran or Nam Lee and etc etc.

And no the best players don't generally play all the 1500 events. Some dont play them at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jc Tran plays..like everything.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

I think one thing that people aren't taking into account is the amount of tournies these top guys play. For example I remember Johny Chan saying somewhere that he took a bunch of years off from the WSOP and hardly plays any preliminary events at all. I think I heard Doyle has kept a light schedule as well. So they might have one less bracelet, but if Phil has played 3 times as many WSOP events as them, what does that say?

Is there anywhere to look up how many events the pros have entered lifetime? Without that information nobody can really make any arguments one way or the other...

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

Yes and Nam Le. And I would rank both of them above Phil. Wouldn't you?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at his results in top fields like the WPT championship, or any event with a top heavy field.

[/ QUOTE ]

like the tournament of champions or the national heads-up championship????

[/ QUOTE ]
How about one he EARNED his way into?

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Win world's largest tourney = besting massed mediocre players...once

Beat world's biggest cash game = besting elite few consistently

Which is greater achievement?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not even like helmuth but when does he say he is the best nl cash game player, he always says best nl tournament player

[/ QUOTE ]

He has said on numerous occasions he is the best poker player in the world, and the best Hold'em player in the world, as well as the best tournament player in the world and best hold'em tournament player. He has a solid case for one of them.

Re: Hellmuth\'s Place?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You've gotta give Phil credit for winning eleven bracelets, all in hold'em," Doyle said. "I think Phil is the best tournament hold'em player in the world."


If Doyle says it, its good enough for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"I have never been so impressed by a teaching program for the game I love." Doyle Brunson - Ten Time World Series of Poker Champion

[/ QUOTE ]
Something else Doyle says, this time about phil's "Black Balt poker course" Link