ABA\'s CLAIM
 

aba 20 says there are no good no-limit books out there for cash games. Ive read a bunch and am thinking of reading Harrington's Series (even though they're for tourneys, Ed Miller says they can improve your cash game more than any other book). Lets discuss aba's claim. (i thought No-limit Theory and Practice was real good)

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

He's probably right, but I think Ed Millers upcoming book (if it's ever actually released) should have some good new content that hasn't yet been exposed to poker readers.

Also I haven't read Stox's book yet and it's on limit, but I just have a hunch that it would be invaluable to all forms of hold em.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

From a theoretical perspective, NLT&P is great and certainly a must read but we need a better book on the play of hands both Full Ring and Shorthanded.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

To date, I think Ciaffone's book is still the best out there and that it is amazing because it was written so long ago. Hopefully the new Matt Flynn book will fill the gap.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

it's semantics, there are lots of "good" NL books out...

but there's no book i'd give a 9 or 10 to yet. no outstanding books..... i'm thinking PNL will be. or if NOT then if ciaffone ever gets a large NL book done.

BTW, given that PNL is going to be two parts, is it theoretical or then problems?... i certainly don't want it to be split on important deep stack concepts like HOH 1 and 2 (making moves, including bluffing and continuation bets is in HOH2)

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

IMO, it would be difficult for any of the super-high NL experts to fairly review any of the NL poker literature. They're just too far advanced for the majority of concepts discussed.

Not to mention that many of the books target the much, much lower limit audience. And what works at 1/2, ain't gonna' work at 300/600.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, it would be difficult for any of the super-high NL experts to fairly review any of the NL poker literature. They're just too far advanced for the majority of concepts discussed.



Not to mention that many of the books target the much, much lower limit audience. And what works at 1/2, ain't gonna' work at 300/600.

[/ QUOTE ]

I trust Aba's opinion on this. Yes he plays 300-600 but he started at small stakes and probably has a good understanding on what a good book would be for beggining/intermediate player.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

Would he even today you think? When Aba was coming up in the ranks, the online game wasn't as advanced as it is today. Back then, people were saving their rolls to play 10/20 where the experts roamed.

Nowadays, you can find tough NL games (online that is) even at the lower to low/medium stakes. The live games are still fishy though.

But just to re-quote myself, I said it "would be difficult for them to fairly review", definitely not impossible though.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

Are the HOHs that worth it? Should I take the time to read them? The HOHs and Ciaffone are the only "good" texas holdem books I haven't read yet.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are the HOHs that worth it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they are. In poker literature, they're considered must-reads.

Just keep in mind that you're not going to forever crush the cash games or tournament scene just b/c you've read them.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

hoh vol 1, nltap, top, LGB, pl&nl poker. i guess he missed all of these titles. w/o these books i would be lost.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

The only ones you haven't read? Well then you have missed the very best ones for NL. Without a doubt.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

[ QUOTE ]
aba 20 says there are no good no-limit books out there for cash games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has he elucidated on this? Does he say what flaws current books have? Does he say if it is impossible to write a truly good no limit book, or does he just say that current literature falls short without explanation of how and why?

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

What I think Brian is trying to say is that there is no one poker book you can read that will make up for experience. You can read all the poker books in the world yet it will not make up for playing 600-700k hands of good poker. Books are a good starting point but you cant rely on them to much.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

Grunch


Did only make it halfway thru the replies, but all of you saying differently ... errr .. .there are no good NL hold'em ringgame books.

Even NLTAP is fairly mediocre


And don't defend the books by saying they are intended for a noob audience and so therefore can't be expected to contain advanced material.


Hopefully PLN will improve on this.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

Gotta go with Brian's view. I think there's good stuff in some books, especially Ciaffone and NLHTAP, but no-limit is a people game, and there is no substitute for hand reading skills, experience, and having your mistakes beat into you over tens of thousands of hands online.

There's also an ENORMOUS amount of material that deals with the math and how to adjust that is not yet in print. Sunny and I have a table of contents that would easily fill half a dozen books, and we haven't gotten serious about fleshing it out yet. So I understand any strong player's frustration with the literature. If you can think precisely, you can come up with 40 or 50 concepts and write a book. Not hard at all right now, which is probably why 50 people are coming out with books.

Sunny, Ed and I will cover some of that ground with the two PNL books. In volume 1 we present the fundamentals, how to frame no-limit decisions and work through them (REM), and great detail on how to manipulate implied odds in your favor (Planning Hands Around Commitment). It's conceptually easy and a little harder in practice, but it makes enough preflop decisions easy (and allows you to avoid many nasty stack decisions) that we felt we had to cover it in detail and with dozens of hand examples.

For example, you have 77 in middle position after one limper in a game with 100BB stacks. What do you do? Many raise to 3.5 or 4BB there, which is often terrible if you don't steal frequently when you miss. For many players it is a 0.5-1BB error, a nightmare for your earn rate. After reading PNL volume 1, you should be able to size up your game and opponents - whether loose, tight, aggro, or whatever - and know if that raise size is reasonable or as much as a 1.5BB mistake.

We went for maximum help to small-stakes and mid stakes pros in volume 1, but don't think these errors aren't made often in 10-20 games. In general, the first half of the book is easier and the second half advanced, but I doubt Brian would learn much from any book. He already knows it.

Matt

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

In complete agreement with Matt.

My point was just that I believe it's a bit tougher for an expert, high-stakes NL player to review current poker literature.

I certainly don't think that NLHTAP or Ciaffone are complete works by any means but to say that they aren't any good is a bit strong. I definitely took wisdom out of both. I also recognize that someone of Brian's caliber wouldn't though. I further realize that he'd be in disagreement with some advice currently written and agree with others.

Now, if Brian had said that the current NL poker literature is lacking, incomplete, certain advice could be incorrect, etc., etc., I'd agree w/o question.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

[ QUOTE ]
For example, you have 77 in middle position after one limper in a game with 100BB stacks. What do you do? Many raise to 3.5 or 4BB there, which is often terrible if you don't steal frequently when you miss. For many players it is a 0.5-1BB error, a nightmare for your earn rate. After reading PNL volume 1, you should be able to size up your game and opponents - whether loose, tight, aggro, or whatever - and know if that raise size is reasonable or as much as a 1.5BB mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damnit, Matt! You always say something interesting like this, and then leave me hanging! I'm dyin' here!

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

[ QUOTE ]
hoh vol 1, nltap, top, LGB, pl&nl poker. i guess he missed all of these titles. w/o these books i would be lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the quote of his that states there are no good books was quite a while back.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

what about raising with the sevens to function as as a pot builder in case you hit your set? when playing 1-2 no-limit stealing blinds is not really the goal.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

I think most of the NL books don't deal enough with the aggressiveness of todays online games. I just got stoxs book and am reading through it, I find that it applies well to even as low as 5/10 6 max online. If someone could write a NL book like stoxs limit book I think it would be one of the first NL books that applies well to the current state of things.

I find even NLTAP has good concepts, etc, but alot of the advice doesn't really apply to the mid stakes games at this time.

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

Well i just got HOH vol 1 from barnes and noble- im gonna try and read that trio and ciaffone (just as like a little foreplay to PNL of course Matt, cant wait).

Re: ABA\'s CLAIM
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would he even today you think? When Aba was coming up in the ranks, the online game wasn't as advanced as it is today.

[/ QUOTE ]
You make it sound like he came up through the ranks a decade ago.

He started playing poker in August 2005, playing fixed-limit $0.25/$0.50 hold 'em. He switched over to small stakes no-limit hold 'em in 2006 and worked his way up from there.

He doesn't need all that great a memory to recall what it's like being a beginner.