A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but since it happened at 'Event 12 - $1,500 No Limit Holdem 6 Handed' this seems an appropriate place.

How is this an even remotely fair outcome if the dealer of the broken table confirmed he had ~8000 in chips.


as reported ...

A Severe Penalty
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A table is broken and players disperse to their new seating assignments. An inexperienced player arrives at his new table with about 700 in chips in his hand, puts them on the table, and reaches into his pocket for the rest of his chips (approximately 7000).

The players erupt, saying "You can't put chips in your pocket!"

The floor is called over and dealers on both tables are consulted as to what happened. The dealer on the table that was broken confirms he had approximately 8000. A penalty is warranted, and they rule that the 700 he put on the table will remain in play, but that the chips he put in his pocket will be forfeited.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. THAT IS CRAZEEEEEEE

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

It sucks extremely bad. But they usually scream those rules out for everyone to hear. Then repeat them when they move everyone from a table. There's nothign that could really be done.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

This is specifically called out in the rules. Chips go in your pocket, their dead.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

Just shows how bad poker players are erupting at this poor kid. Yeah he did something wrong, but if i was at the table i would let it slide if the kid was nervous and stuff.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

I thought the penalty was automatic DQ... Not chip in pocket, chip dead...

Didn't somebody get DQ'd from the main event last year for putting a chip in his pocket?

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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This is specifically called out in the rules. Chips go in your pocket, their dead.

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Venetian is doing this as well. Chips come out of sight, they come out of play. Player can also incour a DQ penalty if the TD so choses.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

Third year in a row something like this has happened,

2 years ago chips went to bathroom
last year dude pockets them
nothing new at least 1 noob a year does it. (should have been a betting line as to the 1st event and chip level it would occur at.

Losing the chips are bad enough, but now he can't even keep the ones in his pockets as souvenirs.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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I thought the penalty was automatic DQ... Not chip in pocket, chip dead...


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I'm surprised it wasn't a DQ. This rule is taken very seriiously by TDs.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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I thought the penalty was automatic DQ... Not chip in pocket, chip dead...

Didn't somebody get DQ'd from the main event last year for putting a chip in his pocket?

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Looks like you might be right about the DQ. Maybe that was the 'break' that the kid got.

63. All chips must be visible at all times. Players may not hold or transport tournament chips in any manner that takes them out of view. A player who does so will forfeit the chips and face disqualification. The forfeited chips will be taken out of play.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

There is nothing unfair here. The guy broke a set-in-stone rule. His ignorance of it is irrelevant.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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It sucks extremely bad. But they usually scream those rules out for everyone to hear. Then repeat them when they move everyone from a table. There's nothign that could really be done.

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Yeah, it seems like it's always made clear when the table breaks. I think one time, I threw my coat over my rack when I was changing tables, and the TD assistant immediately told me to uncover them, which I did (no penalty).

I can imagine that this kid either moved the chips to his pocket when he was between tables, or he had earphones on and never heard the instructions. Still, it's his responsibility to know the rules that are publicly announced.

-Z

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

Proof that so many players have no idea, even at the WSOP. I've played $50 tourneys at my local and even I know all chips must always remain in sight eg. no pocketing.

Penalty is warranted. People should learn the rules, eg. TDA would be a good place to start.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

some guy in the $5000 w/rebuys omaha event didn't know you only play two of your hole cards.
about 7000 people in last year's main event didn't know that KJ in early position isn't a good hand.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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about 7000 people in last year's main event didn't know that KJ in early position isn't a good hand.

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depends if it's sooted!

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

thats brutal

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

If you're gonna put chips in your pocket then you obviously have to just save them for the bigger buy-in events or transfer them to your main stallion. How the hell do you guys think "The Master" makes so many final tables?

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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There is nothing unfair here. The guy broke a set-in-stone rule. His ignorance of it is irrelevant.

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Agreed. This is standard for most tournaments.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

I was there. It was not a kid, it was a middle aged man. It was definitely a guy who did not know better, but we can't make exceptions to the rules. It was harsh, and actually hurt to watch, but if one person gets a pass then it becomes impossible to enforce the rule for anybody. Next thing you know people take advantage of the situation. Expensive lesson. Live and learn.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

sucks to be him

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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but we can't make exceptions to the rules.

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Actually by rule the floor staff can and does on a regular basis. There isn't really enough info as to whether or not an excpetion should be made in this case.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

So if you only have a chip and a chair, can you not put it in your hand close your fingers around it and carry it to the new table

I agree that putting them in your pockets seems obvious, but saying that *all* chips must be *visible* means that if you put your hand over the top of a rack and carry them, you are making at least some of the chips not visible.

Interesting wording of the rule...

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

yes, but NOT putting them in your pocket or take them to the bathroom is a very BASIC rule in tournaments.

It only takes ONCE either happening to yourself, or seeing it happen to someone else, to get the point across.

I had a friend who went up and played in Blackhawk at the Gilpin (A local casino that many of us in Denver play at, that holds 4 tournaments a day) a few months back.

I went up there that day to register in the event just after the one he was in, and bumped into him.

He was the chip leader and had a boatload of chips over and above everyone else.

Well, next thing I know he's MIA and no one wants to tell me where he went.

I also work with him, and ran into him at work and asked him what happened, because he had such a monster chip lead.

Seems he's not played in many tournaments, and about halfway through the story I knew what happened to him and his chips.

He was very upset and told me, well, the break came up and it was down to the final two tables, and they were consolidating down from three.

When he went over to his new table, someone elses chips were sitting there. Not knowing what to do, instead of asking the floor what should he do, he took his racks (several of them) to the mens room with him.

When he came back, the same thing happened to him that happened to the person the OP mentioned.

The fellow the OP mentioned could of asked the floor to help him move his chips, or to get him some chip racks.

Heck, I've played in Charity events in Ohio (which is the only legal poker there) when I lived there, and it was said each and every time at the start of the event, chips go in your pocket or out of the room, and you will be disqualified.

In fact, they even repeated it when the first break was announced as well.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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thats brutal

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Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

I'm both a dealer and a floorman. This type of decision decides what kind of player you are. Experienced players understand this is a no-no. But, you have to use common sense. He was not angle-shooting. This is the type of player you want in every tournament. Why do you want to isolate him? In big poker tournaments, ignorance is sometime an excuse for the law. Those chips should have been in play.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm both a dealer and a floorman. This type of decision decides what kind of player you are. Experienced players understand this is a no-no. But, you have to use common sense. He was not angle-shooting. This is the type of player you want in every tournament. Why do you want to isolate him? In big poker tournaments, ignorance is sometime an excuse for the law. Those chips should have been in play.

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Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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Just shows how bad poker players are erupting at this poor kid. Yeah he did something wrong, but if i was at the table i would let it slide if the kid was nervous and stuff.

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I'm not saying that I would say anything. I'm only saying what the rules are and that there's no way around it.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

As someone said previously, the final thing they tell you when they are breaking the table is that you are not allowed to put chips in your pockets. I played event #3, got moved three times, and they told us the rule each time. It is indeed brutal, but I have no sympathy for him.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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I thought the penalty was automatic DQ... Not chip in pocket, chip dead...

Didn't somebody get DQ'd from the main event last year for putting a chip in his pocket?

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I was a floor supervisor last year during the WSOP. The rule is the chips that are in your pocket are dead and taken out of play.
Therefore, if all of your chips are in your pocket your are" DQed".
This is a correct floor call.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

Not brutal, not severe, and it's a rule designed to help prevent cheating. It is 100% standard in every major tournament, and it's a rule that's made repeatedly clear at the WSOP every time a table breaks.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

With the size of the prize pools nowadays, there should be no grey areas in regards to rules.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

Last year I was playing in event #41. A couple people had already been DQ'ed during the series for the same reason. After a couple levels a kid gets sent to our table with no chips. Dealer asks about that, and a few of us look at each other and know what's coming next. The kid pulls enough chips out of his pocket to cover the biggest stack at the table with ease. Dealer and floor give him the bad news, and he just flushed the $1500 buy-in down the toilet.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

my bad. If they announced it more than once, I understand the ruling. It's not a judgement situaltion. It just seems like tough decisions are always put to the floor when has no idea of the right ruling. The floor people are constantly put in these siutations. Sometimes it's black and white, other times judgement is involved. Yet players expect them to make snap judgements. It's not that easy as players think it is. I agree, it is harsh, but, if they announced it several times it is black and white.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

Something like a plastic transparent bag with a zipper provided by the Casino should fix most of these problems.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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Something like a plastic transparent bag with a zipper provided by the Casino should fix most of these problems.

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how about a rack?

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm both a dealer and a floorman. This type of decision decides what kind of player you are. Experienced players understand this is a no-no. But, you have to use common sense. He was not angle-shooting. This is the type of player you want in every tournament. Why do you want to isolate him? In big poker tournaments, ignorance is sometime an excuse for the law. Those chips should have been in play.

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So Men could get an army of new players to pocket chips for him and your common sense would let them get away with it- you cant have different rules for the fish- it sucks to be the guy losing his chips but this isnt some $5 homegame, if I am paying thousands to enter a tournament I want the rules enforced in the strongest way possible

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm both a dealer and a floorman. This type of decision decides what kind of player you are. Experienced players understand this is a no-no. But, you have to use common sense. He was not angle-shooting. This is the type of player you want in every tournament. Why do you want to isolate him? In big poker tournaments, ignorance is sometime an excuse for the law. Those chips should have been in play.

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So Men could get an army of new players to pocket chips for him and your common sense would let them get away with it- you cant have different rules for the fish- it sucks to be the guy losing his chips but this isnt some $5 homegame, if I am paying thousands to enter a tournament I want the rules enforced in the strongest way possible

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This is common thinking among those that are unfamiliar with the decision making process. Here is one of the most important rules that is generally unfamiliar to those that are newer to B&M poker.

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8. The same action may have a different meaning, depending on who does it, so the possible intent of an offender will be taken into consideration. Some factors here are the person’s amount of poker experience and past record.

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Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

It's difficult enough maintaining the integrity of the game without allowing ignorance, no matter how innocent, to outweigh what is best for the game. I can't imagine anyone who is that wet behind the ears entering a WSOP game without having had some play in tournaments.

Hiding chips is never allowed. When tables break the more seasoned players will reiterate this very rule to the newbies at the table who attempt to pocket their chips b/c it's easier to carry that way. Racks are given to players with too many chips to handle easily. This is such a basic rule that anyone who has moved from a table in any tournament would become familiar with it from day one.

No compromises or others will look to pass chips to their friends in need using this method. No more ammo for cheats. Your friend will be all the wiser next year and very happy to know that rules are in place for everyone's benefit. Collusion happens...rules are in place to minimize opportunity. The ruling was adequate - he's lucky he wasn't DQ'd.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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Something like a plastic transparent bag with a zipper provided by the Casino should fix most of these problems.

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how about a rack?

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Anything that costs more than 10 cents a piece is a big no-no for Harrah's.

Re: A Severe Penalty - This hardly seems a fair outcome.
 

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Something like a plastic transparent bag with a zipper provided by the Casino should fix most of these problems.

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I have not been in a tournament yet, WSOP included (2005) where you couldn't ask either the dealer or the floor for chip racks.

I remember watching Greg Raymer on ESPN for I think the 2005 event, where they are escorting him to his new table (with Mike the mouth there too), and he had a ton of chips many of them in several chip racks.

If you have too many chips to carry in one hand (a problem everyone hopes for I might add), ask for assistance from the floor or the dealer to get them to your new table.