Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/gamb...A000004244.cfm . It sounds like a mirror-image of our actions. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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Internet Gambling Take Action
3-29-2007

by Chad Hills


In 2005, U.S. citizens illegally exported $6 billion dollars to unknown, unaccountable foreign online casinos. Congress passed legislation to stop Internet gambling in the U.S., but the Department of Treasury needs to hear your voice to keep this legislation strong. Representative Barney Frank, however, introduced dangerous legislation that would legalize Internet gambling and promote its expansion. The fight is on and we need your help to defend the family!



NEWS FLASH: Barney Frank Bill Threatens Families, National Security



Representative Barney Frank, Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, sponsored a bill (H.R. 2046) that would legalize Internet gambling in the United States. His bill, if passed, will undo nearly a decade of Congressional efforts to protect children and families from gambling predators on the Internet. It also threatens homeland security in the midst of terrorist threats.

Before the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 was signed into law, children were being assaulted by Internet pop-ups and advertisements for more than 2,000 instant, online casinos. More than $6 billion left the U.S. economy and poured into questionable off-shore gambling operations. Barney Frank's bill must be defeated for the sake of children, families and homeland security.

This coming Friday, June 8, at 10 am, the House Financial Services Committee will hold a hearing on Rep. Barney Frank's legislation, H.R. 2046, the "Internet Gambling Regulation and Enforcement Act of 2007." H.R 2046 has 19 Co-Sponsors.

H.R. 2046 sets up a scheme for legalizing, licensing and regulating Internet gambling operations. Rep. Barney Frank's bill excuses Internet gambling operators from prosecution or enforcement action under any Federal or State law, if they simply obtain a license and follow the bill's requirements. Thus, H.R. 2046 effectively overrides all other gambling regulations or limitations under Federal or State law.

Are you tired of being assaulted by thousands of online gambling pop-up ads? Are you worried about your children, a spouse or an extended family member becoming "hooked" on highly addictive Internet gambling? Barney Frank seems more concerned about a handful of poker players and the special interests of foreign casino operators.

Oppose Barney Frank's bill (H.R. 2046) and support strong regulations for the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006. Take action now!



Take Action - Barney Frank Bill

Oppose Barney Frank's legislation (H.R. 2046), because it jeopardizes the safety of our families and our nation.

The House of Representatives, specifically those who serve on the Financial Services Committee, need to hear an outcry from families and pro-family groups by this Thursday (6-7-07).


Fax, call or e-mail your Representative. Urge your Representative to oppose HR 2046. If your state has a Representative on the House Financial Services Committee, contact them as well (see Committee members). This Committee will hold a hearing on Barney Frank's bill this Friday (6-8-07).


Other Things You Can Do:

Submit testimony (your experience, your thoughts) about Internet gambling for the Congressional record (by 6-8-07).
Send out e-mails to friends to call their Representatives.
Mention this issue in your church, to radio programs or other pro-family organizations
Write to the local newspaper editor with your concerns.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

I'm glad to see they addressed exactly how homeland security is threatened by online gambling.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

It is engineer, I even wrote to Focus on Family telling them how disappointed I was in them supporting the UIGEA since it contained LEGALIZED gaming, we should ALL do the same AND make this point to our reps as well, I did in one recent letter.

Also, FoF sent a letter to the White House, I responded to them as well as to how self serving and really disingenuous the stance is.

BTW, received a response today from Capito (R, HFSC) telling me she is aware of Franks bill, (I would hope since she serves there), lol.

Same BS response, I will keep your views in mind......

obg

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

"Taxpayers and the federal government should not be burdened with monitoring thousands of separate, foreign gambling sites for corruption, illegal activities or jeopardizing homeland security."

But we should be burdened with trying to implement the UIGEA.

"Effective and strong regulations are necessary to ensure that the online gambling industry does not infiltrate millions of homes, destroy children, ruin families and mock U.S. laws prohibiting Internet gambling."

Unfortunately for them, this bill has the teeth of a 2 year old.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad to see they addressed exactly how homeland security is threatened by online gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I like the part where they give the reader information so that he can make an informed decision about the issue.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

But its nice that they credited us "handful of poker players" for making this "dangerous" legislation possible [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] .

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Just who is CitizensLink...No surprise here! I can not get into the whole church thing due to the moral highground crap they spew, while we all know the controversy surrounding the churches and what has happened within their walls. I honestly don't know how all the churches will survive over the next 25 years with the importance of religion decreasing in America.

-------------------------------------------------------

Focus on the Family's Mission Statement: To cooperate with the Holy Spirit in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with as many people as possible by nurturing and defending the God-ordained institution of the family and promoting biblical truths worldwide.

Vision: Redeemed families, communities, and societies worldwide through Christ.

Good read about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_on_the_family

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Focus on the Family is like sand in your crotch -- very, very irritating.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

yeah, i now my kids were assaulted daily with pop ups demanding that they support terrorism by playing in the weekly Jihad madness tournament featuring bounties for Osama Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

50% sign up bonus for infidels!

boy, thank god literally for the religious conservatives in this country, without them we wouldn't have anyone to tell us how to think.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
His bill, if passed, will undo nearly a decade of Congressional efforts to protect children and families from gambling predators on the Internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yeah, more like one night's worth of sleezeball efforts.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

I am a Christian and am truely ashamed of this organization's lies and attempts to manipulate those who are less informed. This is really sad.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Do you think we could get an article published somewhere exposing each lie in the article they have written?

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
His bill, if passed, will undo nearly a decade of Congressional efforts to protect children and families from gambling predators on the Internet. It also threatens white-handed gibbons natural mating grounds in Rangoon

[/ QUOTE ]

Edited for similar rationality.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is engineer, I even wrote to Focus on Family telling them how disappointed I was in them supporting the UIGEA since it contained LEGALIZED gaming

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you told them, but they are very happy to work on things incrementally. Here's an article on their incremental approach to banning abortion in America. The article is revealing in that Dobson has evangelical opponents who feel Dobson should be going for an all-or-nothing approach on abortion.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
But its nice that they credited us "handful of poker players" for making this "dangerous" legislation possible [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] .

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, FOF doesn't stand for Focus on Facts. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] More like 100,000+ handfuls of poker players.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

I want to give a different view of FOF than that contained in all the snarky and somewhat anti-Christian comments above. As posters here who also have read the SMP forum over time know, I am a Catholic Christian, and a conservative one. I however, unlike fundamentalists, do not in general have a problem with gambling (and my views on same can be found in the archived theread here ).

Instead of just opposing FOF's efforts here because of the general anti-religious mindset some of you have, why not instead rebut their points on facts and logic? The correct way to do that is to differentiate poker from other forms of gambling, note that we support efforts to limit and help with gambling addictions, and to make it clear that we view this as a matter of the right of individuals to spend their money as they please. Same as with all the women who have 500 pairs of shoes and guys that have 1000 ties. And point out that to maintain otherwise, that they should be spending equal efforts to limit compulsive shopping and limiting the predatory practices of banks in regards to credit cards.

A lot of this fundamentalist anti-gambling rhetoric rests on wrong facts and illogical arguments (like "first comes gambling then prostitution and drugs and more crime, etc., etc."), and we as 2+2'ers who supposedly think better than the average american, should be pointing out those factual inaccuracies and logical fallacies. Because once we do that, then all they are left with is "we believe gambling is a sin and that we should impose that belief on others".

So the more productive approach is to do just that, i.e. stip all the BS away from their arguments and leave them with just the one that personal morality should be imposed by law even when same doesn't harm others.

And note that this manner of interacting with and discussing FOF is all the more necessary because of their political clout, and because Dr. Dobson isn't just one of those hustlers in clerical garb who only is out for a buck. He is a sincere Christian who hasn't had personal scandals that make it easy to attack him personally. So engage him and his followers in the political arena with better thinking and I guarantee that many Christians won't be as insistant as some are on imposing their beliefs when the other arguments that are piled on top of same are shown to be faulty. And making it clear that plenty of religious believers don't agree with them on this issue takes a lot of wind from their sails.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to give a different view of FOF than that contained in all the snarky and somewhat anti-Christian comments above. ... Instead of just opposing FOF's efforts here because of the general anti-religious mindset some of you have ...

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with the rest of your post, this is uncalled for. I am neither anti-religious nor anti-Christian, but I am strongly opposed to most of what groups like FOF represent.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

whang,

Noted. But there is no reason to even mention "the rest of the stuff", because it will only be taken as anti-religious opposition instead of reasoned opposition. Don't make it easy on them.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

These guys are just as bad as the terrorists really. They're two sides of the same coin. Both fundamentalists trying to destroy America.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to give a different view of FOF than that contained in all the snarky and somewhat anti-Christian comments above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which comments did you find anti-Christian? I just read all of them and couldn't find any. There are some comments against Focus, but that's not the same as being against Christianity (as much as Dobson likes to think it is).

As gambling is not a sin and is not referenced negatively in the Bible, I'd suggest that Dobson's use of Jesus and Christianity to attack gambling is anti-Christian.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of just opposing FOF's efforts here because of the general anti-religious mindset some of you have, why not instead rebut their points on facts and logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one reason I posted the thread. Other reasons were to raise everyone's awareness of their efforts and to share FOFs embrace of fighting for incremental gain.

Sun Tzu wrote "know your enemy" in Art of War. I think we've had some substantive discussions on our opponents, and we need to continue to do so.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

the focus on the family website is quite entertaining. sad thing is, there are people who actually believe what it says.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

I appreciate the other side of the story, but read through that letter again. And then again. And one more time. And ask yourself if they are speaking because they are mis-informed or if they have an agenda.

To me it's clear that it's an agenda to legislate morality on those of us who don't share their beliefs. It's also clear to me that the group as a whole (not individual people) cannot be persuaded by reason and logic, in much the same way that Bush supporters cannot be persuaded by reason and logic.

I'm not anti-religion, or anti-faith. They are powerful things that can change people's life for the better. What I have a MAJOR problem with is trying to take those beliefs and imposing them on other people. And that goes a lot farther than internet poker.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Engineer,

I inferred an anti-Christian bias on the part of some posters because of unecessarily bringing in other issues and noting opposition to FOF's position on same. I should have been more clear though in that I really meant opposing the political positions that some Christian organizations take with the implied inference that religious believers shouldn't be free as any other citizen to get their values where they wish. I don't want to sidetrack this thread on a fuller discussion of this.

Regarding their "incremental strategy", I don't think that is important per se here, as what is important are their facutal and logical shortcomings in their arguments. Where the incremental thing comes in, is in negotiating with those in general opposed to gambling on just how gambling is to be regulated. For instance we shouldn't shortchange ourselves and agree to limits on games, stakes levels etc., when they would indeed like to restrict same in its entireity. This comes into play when politicians think that can straddle the fence like this. Either we have a right to spend our money as we please or we don't, and the size of that spending shouldn't be negotiated away, like in Florida and other locations with their stakes limitations.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Good read on FOF, their strengths and problems. Compared to them we are a mere handful. I don't think we want to provoke their ire or special attention. If the link requires you to be a subscriber still, and you want to read, I will PM you a text of it.
The link is messed up, wil repost

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]

As gambling is not a sin and is not referenced negatively in the Bible, I'd suggest that Dobson's use of Jesus and Christianity to attack gambling is anti-Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to ask about this.

I always read/hear Christians (not all of them, obviously) rail against gambling because it's a sin. So there's nothing in the Bible about it at all? This is all just made up?

I have never understood why people think betting money on a card game (or for some, even simply PLAYING a card game) is immoral. If there was something in the Bible about it, I could at least understand fundamentalists having an problem with it.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As gambling is not a sin and is not referenced negatively in the Bible, I'd suggest that Dobson's use of Jesus and Christianity to attack gambling is anti-Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to ask about this.

I always read/hear Christians (not all of them, obviously) rail against gambling because it's a sin. So there's nothing in the Bible about it at all? This is all just made up?

I have never understood why people think betting money on a card game (or for some, even simply PLAYING a card game) is immoral. If there was something in the Bible about it, I could at least understand fundamentalists having an problem with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible has many versus concerning wealth. And I paraphrase one, "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to ascend to Heaven."

Funny... when you see someone like Herr Bush making $400k a year, no one says anything.

On a tangent, this country is going to hell in a handbasket. Your ideas and beliefs should never extrapolate to everyone in a free society full of many cultures. When it hurts you, speak up... else go back to your path of piety and leave me the [censored] alone.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good read on FOF, their strengths and problems. Compared to them we are a mere handful. I don't think we want to provoke their ire or special attention. If the link requires you to be a subscriber still, and you want to read, I will PM you a text of it. http://www.economist.com/world/na/di...ory_id=8776546

[/ QUOTE ]

We as poker players certainly have their attention. That's actually why I posted the thread. True, we don't want their attention by name (like them posting here to spam us), so I wouldn't make a point of taunting them on their sites with a link back to here, of course.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

The group is very anti-gay so they will not derail Barney Frank. I hope Frank sticks it to them.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good read on FOF, their strengths and problems. Compared to them we are a mere handful. I don't think we want to provoke their ire or special attention. If the link requires you to be a subscriber still, and you want to read, I will PM you a text of it. http://www.economist.com/world/na/di...ory_id=8776546

[/ QUOTE ]

We as poker players certainly have their attention. That's actually why I posted the thread. True, we don't want their attention by name (like them posting here to spam us), so I wouldn't make a point of taunting them on their sites with a link back to here, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rereading that and watching Stewart recently, I had an idea I would love to see come to fruition. Larry Flint has offered a million to anyone who can document a member of Congress having improper sex. Maybe something similar listing congresspeople who have gambled large sums of money or participated in illegal home or DC cardgames. Not sure if Flint would put the money up or not, but as I recall he is a blackjack freak.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Lurker,

That kind of stuff will only alienate politicians who are our supporters. Focus on the shortcomings of their arguments and not attacking them personally if you want to be seen as a reasonable person making a reasonable request to be able to spend your money as you please when you don't harm others.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
The group is very anti-gay so they will not derail Barney Frank. I hope Frank sticks it to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

For a group who claim to be loving (FOF, not Christians in general), they sure have no love for Frank, nor he for them.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The group is very anti-gay so they will not derail Barney Frank. I hope Frank sticks it to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

For a group who claim to be loving (FOF, not Christians in general), they sure have no love for Frank, nor he for them.

[/ QUOTE ]


Engineer,

You all can do what you want and I'm through making my point. But I again maintain that the above kinds of comments just derail what should be the real discussion of this thread, which is how properly to respond in the political arena to the arguments of FOF and others against the legislation we want.

Note that they would make the distinction, which you don't and possibly aren't willing to make, between being "anti" gay acts/lifestyle morally, and being "anti" the persons who do those acts and live that lifestyle (and I'm not going to engage in a full blown debate on same here - the proper venue for same is the SMP forum).

The more you focus on who is making the arguments against our position and the other positions they hold, the more you dilute our real counter-arguments against their specific arguments in *this* gamling/poker issue.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

As gambling is not a sin and is not referenced negatively in the Bible, I'd suggest that Dobson's use of Jesus and Christianity to attack gambling is anti-Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to ask about this.

I always read/hear Christians (not all of them, obviously) rail against gambling because it's a sin. So there's nothing in the Bible about it at all? This is all just made up?

I have never understood why people think betting money on a card game (or for some, even simply PLAYING a card game) is immoral. If there was something in the Bible about it, I could at least understand fundamentalists having an problem with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they made it up. Fundamentalist Christians have a long history of basing morality not on the Bible, but on their ideas of what seems right and wrong. For example, some Baptists believe drinking one beer is sinful, yet Jesus himself made wine (a big miracle of His). And, He didn't make it for a sacrament. Rather, He made it for a PARTY!!! Seems inconsistent with the beliefs of people who claim to be his followers. Some fundamentalists think dancing is a sin. And, of course, many objected to all rock music. As for gambling, there isn't a word about it. Here's an interesting article that provides about as much justification as is possible from the Bible: http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_93.htm#whySin . It's rather convoluted in terms of logic, but it essentially claims that the issue is that gambling is greed-driven. Supposedly, the "greed" is in wanting something for nothing.

One objection I have to this is that I think it contradicts the Biblical story "Parable of the Talents", where making money not from sweat and labor, but from interest and profit, is praised. See Matthew 25:14-30 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Talents . Other verses in the Bible instruct us to use our gifts to the maximum.

So, am I sinfully greedy if I use my poker skills to make an equivalent hourly income to what I make at my day job (if that were the case)? After all, if the money's the same, is it greed? Am I sinfully greedy for working overtime? Is it sinful if my opponent derives enjoyment from playing poker while I derive income? In that case, it's win-win. I think the answer is "no". Furthermore, gambling existed in Jesus' day. Why no word of it being wrong?

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The group is very anti-gay so they will not derail Barney Frank. I hope Frank sticks it to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

For a group who claim to be loving (FOF, not Christians in general), they sure have no love for Frank, nor he for them.

[/ QUOTE ]


Engineer,

You all can do what you want and I'm through making my point. But I again maintain that the above kinds of comments just derail what should be the real discussion of this thread, which is how properly to respond in the political arena to the arguments of FOF and others against the legislation we want.

Note that they would make the distinction, which you don't and possibly aren't willing to make, between being "anti" gay acts/lifestyle morally, and being "anti" the persons who do those acts and live that lifestyle (and I'm not going to engage in a full blown debate on same here - the proper venue for same is the SMP forum).

The more you focus on who is making the arguments against our position and the other positions they hold, the more you dilute our real counter-arguments against their specific arguments in *this* gamling/poker issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I think it's a fair point. FOF (not necessarily all Christians) and Frank have no mutual love. That's important for us to understand, and it adds value to the discussion.

As for your claim that FOF practices "hate the sin, love the sinner", it sure seems like some of them don't mind discriminating against gays and demonizing them. For example, Jerry Falwell said "AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals" and "AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters."

I'm a happy heterosexual, conservative Republican. I'm expressing what I see, and what Frank sees. We should understand this dynamic, IMO.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
The group is very anti-gay so they will not derail Barney Frank. I hope Frank sticks it to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. And I know where he can stick it to them , too...

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Engineer,

I am done with this thread after this post. I hope most posters here recognize the folly of attempting to publicly make the arguments you are making, even if you and some others don't.

FOF and others have an argument against gambling that goes like this:

1) gambling is a sin
2) gambling causes X to happen that is bad for people and society at large.
3) [implied] people shouldn't be allowed to do things that harm themselves and not others.

Now instead of focusing on rebutting #2 and #3, which leaves them only with #1 which is only tenable to a minority of the population and politicians, you instead want to engage them on a battlefield of THEIR CHOOSING, i.e what is or is not the proper interpretation of the Bible and Christian morality. Which then allows them to paint you as anti-Christian/morality and be much more effective in rallying to their cause those who in general believe the same as them, but aren't otherwise likely to participate in the political process. You thus just help them to mobilize more support for THEIR purposes.

We aren't some kind of general purpose political party that engages FOF on a wide range of issues and needs to spend the effort on portraying them in a negative light overall. Rather we are a special interest group that can't afford to engage in those kinds of personal and broad range attacks, lest we alienate the fence sitters and make ourselves look unreasonable. We need to FOCUS on the non-morality aspects of our opponents' arguments, which we can easily refute, and which allows us to wage the battle on a field of OUR choosing.

But if you and others just can't help yourself and feel it necessary to blowhard about the nuances of morality because of your personal distaste with and disagreement with the overall positions of FOF and their allies, then go ahead. Just realize that not only are you putting that above what is the best political strategy for engaging our opponents, but also are using a dominated strategy given their political clout relative to ours, and risking dooming our chances. And obviously I am not talking about making random posts here, but on what we should say publicly, and what we should focus our efforts on.

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am done with this thread after this post. I hope most posters here recognize the folly of attempting to publicly make the arguments you are making, even if you and some others don't.

FOF and others have an argument against gambling that goes like this:

1) gambling is a sin
2) gambling causes X to happen that is bad for people and society at large.
3) [implied] people shouldn't be allowed to do things that harm themselves and not others.

Now instead of focusing on rebutting #2 and #3, which leaves them only with #1 which is only tenable to a minority of the population and politicians, you instead want to engage them on a battlefield of THEIR CHOOSING, i.e what is or is not the proper interpretation of the Bible and Christian morality. Which then allows them to paint you as anti-Christian/morality and be much more effective in rallying to their cause those who in general believe the same as them, but aren't otherwise likely to participate in the political process. You thus just help them to mobilize more support for THEIR purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not making any arguments at all. We're simply discussing FOF's viewpoints to undertand them better, so we know how to counteract their efforts. You've read my letters and emails, as I've been posting them here. I certainly wouldn't think we should debate anyone on the validity of their beliefs. Are you upset because we're talking about a Christian group?

[ QUOTE ]
We aren't some kind of general purpose political party that engages FOF on a wide range of issues and needs to spend the effort on portraying them in a negative light overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who are "we"? I'm just a poster expressing my opinion. Ask Mason.

[ QUOTE ]
we are a special interest group that can't afford to engage in those kinds of personal and broad range attacks, lest we alienate the fence sitters and make ourselves look unreasonable. We need to FOCUS on the non-morality aspects of our opponents' arguments, which we can easily refute, and which allows us to wage the battle on a field of OUR choosing.

But if you and others just can't help yourself and feel it necessary to blowhard about the nuances of morality because of your personal distaste with and disagreement with the overall positions of FOF and their allies, then go ahead. Just realize that not only are you putting that above what is the best political strategy for engaging our opponents, but also are using a dominated strategy given their political clout relative to ours, and risking dooming our chances. And obviously I am not talking about making random posts here, but on what we should say publicly, and what we should focus our efforts on.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are we having a discussion, or are you giving us an order?

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Bluffthis wrote:
"FOF and others have an argument against gambling that goes like this:

1) gambling is a sin
2) gambling causes X to happen that is bad for people and society at large.
3) [implied] people shouldn't be allowed to do things that harm themselves and not others.

Now instead of focusing on rebutting #2 and #3, which leaves them only with #1 which is only tenable to a minority of the population and politicians, you instead want to engage them on a battlefield of THEIR CHOOSING, i.e what is or is not the proper interpretation of the Bible and Christian morality."

In this statement he is absolutely correct, but I disagree with his conclusion from this point. Attacking the FOF on all three points is quite appropriate. Most Christians in this country are not fundamentalists and the case against gambling is quite debateable on theological grounds. Forcing the FOF to at least partially fight on their own turf is just that much less they have to fight with on the real turf, your 2 and 3 points.

But those are the real points, the "gambling = sin" apponent is a small factor precisely because most americans dont just believe in making sins a crime.

But they do believe in the government protecting us from ourselves. And I dont believe that we can talk them out of that compeletely. We have to do the "regulated is better protection against harm" argument, because they can understand that AND because we can win that argument.

But pointing out the hypocracy or intellectual incompetency of our faith-based opponents is never a bad tactic, it just isnt the most important tactic.

Skallagrim

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

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For a group who claim to be loving (FOF, not Christians in general) ...

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[political rant]That is the most utterly remarkable thing about the religious right. Look at many of their isues and ask "Is this something Jesus would do." I mean, Pat Robertson publicly called for the execution of someone for Christ's sake.[/political rant]

Re: Focus on the Family [censored] Warning About the 6/8 IGREA Hearing
 

Agree.

Also, just for the record, I wasn't suggesting that we debate anyone on gambing being a sin. In fact, I agree that we should hope that's all they have for their arguement. I'd love that. My comments on sin vs man-made morality were in response to Bluffthis' comments that being anti-FOF equals being anti-Christian:

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I want to give a different view of FOF than that contained in all the snarky and somewhat anti-Christian comments above.

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Which comments did you find anti-Christian? I just read all of them and couldn't find any. There are some comments against Focus, but that's not the same as being against Christianity (as much as Dobson likes to think it is).

As gambling is not a sin and is not referenced negatively in the Bible, I'd suggest [not "suggest" as in using for an argument against FOF, but "suggest" to Bluffthis that Dobson's use of Jesus and Christianity to attack gambling is anti-Christian.

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