JJ tough spot
 

SB is 31/20 over 50.
CO is 20/13/3 over 380 and I havent seen him get out of line. Is pf a raise or fold situation? Wtf do I do on the turn?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($339.90)
CO ($197)
Button ($190)
SB ($218.10)
Hero ($433.85)
UTG ($340.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $7</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $23</font>, Hero calls $20, CO calls $15.

Flop: ($67) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $44</font>, CO calls $44, SB folds.

Turn: ($155) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero ???

Re: JJ tough spot
 

I think you're beat. the 3bet cold call smells of aces or kings, as well as the flop call.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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I think you're beat. the 3bet cold call smells of aces or kings, as well as the flop call.

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I'm more worried about QQ than AA/KK. DUCY?

Re: JJ tough spot
 

Well given your read that he hasn't gotten out of line I think you should just give up on the turn. I think you would have heard from the NFD if he had AK/D off the flop.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

This sure looks like QQ. Check turn and see what he does. If he checks behind I think I check/call a non A/K river.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

im shutting down here always and praying for him to show down 1010.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

this looks a lot more like a mp than qq to me. that being said i c/r the turn ai

Re: JJ tough spot
 

check and check. I think it'll get checked through on the turn with most of his range besides maybe AA, sometimes KK, so I doubt a CRAI will work.

How smart about it is he with his vbets? Depending on that, you might be able to call a river bet.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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this looks a lot more like a mp than qq to me. that being said i c/r the turn ai

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CO only has a PSB left so i doubt youre getting a chance to ch/r (and highly unlikely he bets turn with worse anyway - if he puts you on missed overs hes checking it down trying to get to showdown cheap)

and i disagree with your above statementfor another reason as well. how can you think he has exactly 99 and TT more often than 88, QQ, KK, AA AND bet the turn with them? (them being 99/TT)

i think getting it in here with JJ is pretty bad. youre either ahead and not getting paid off or more likely behind and getting stacked.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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I think you're beat. the 3bet cold call smells of aces or kings, as well as the flop call.

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I'm more worried about QQ than AA/KK. DUCY?

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I think a lot of mp will play it the same too, so I don't think can give too much weight on QQ over any other hand.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

i don't know why everyone is so quick to put the CO on such a narrow range of QQ+ here. After the SBs 3-bet, and our call, even tight players are going to play a wider range than usual here: any pair, high suited cards, maybe even suited connectors, suited Aces.

that said...i like shoving the turn. we protect/get value from flush draw + over card type hands...and maybe we'll even get a call from 99-TT.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why everyone is so quick to put the CO on such a narrow range of QQ+ here. After the SBs 3-bet, and our call, even tight players are going to play a wider range than usual here: any pair, high suited cards, maybe even suited connectors, suited Aces.



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those hands arent floating the flop very often and if they do they are hardly ever putting another cent into the pot unless they improve. my point was that if you do manage to get it in here, his range is much closer to 88/QQ+ than what you listed above.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why everyone is so quick to put the CO on such a narrow range of QQ+ here. After the SBs 3-bet, and our call, even tight players are going to play a wider range than usual here: any pair, high suited cards, maybe even suited connectors, suited Aces.



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those hands arent floating the flop very often and if they do they are hardly ever putting another cent into the pot unless they improve. my point was that if you do manage to get it in here, his range is much closer to 88/QQ+ than what you listed above.

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so you wanna check/fold the turn on the basis that we'll only get called if we're crushed?

i'm more than happy if we shove and villain folds KdQd or something similar. and i still think that we'll sometimes get called by worse hands.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]

those hands arent floating the flop very often and if they do they are hardly ever putting another cent into the pot unless they improve. my point was that if you do manage to get it in here, his range is much closer to 88/QQ+ than what you listed above.

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lol what kind of nitty-ass TAGS are u playing that don't don't "float" that flop with 44-TT?

QQ is such a small part of his range here.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know why everyone is so quick to put the CO on such a narrow range of QQ+ here. After the SBs 3-bet, and our call, even tight players are going to play a wider range than usual here: any pair, high suited cards, maybe even suited connectors, suited Aces.



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those hands arent floating the flop very often and if they do they are hardly ever putting another cent into the pot unless they improve. my point was that if you do manage to get it in here, his range is much closer to 88/QQ+ than what you listed above.

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so you wanna check/fold the turn on the basis that we'll only get called if we're crushed?

i'm more than happy if we shove and villain folds KdQd or something similar. and i still think that we'll sometimes get called by worse hands.

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no, thats not what i said. i expect turn to go check/check pretty often and then we can value bet river expecting to get called by mp's more often than on the turn. and id rather ch/call a turn shove than open push.
also, dont you think diamonds + overs are shoving that flop a ton?

Re: JJ tough spot
 

i am also in the checking camp. as cs3 has said, i think turn action will go check-check more often than not. if the villain has some type of mp here and turn gets checked thru, his river bet calling range is much wider than the range w/ which he would call the turn bet. as for the possibility of villain floating this flop, i think u will have general idea as to how float happy the villain is, given u have about 400hands vs him. if u think he is float happy, then check calling AI on turn should be the way to go.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

I don't see how this could be QQ+.

I'm going broke here, it's just a matter how.

I think I prefer leading to crai as I think it gets checked through too often, and there are quite a few rivers we don't want to see that will lose us value.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

This is a pretty tough spot for sure.

Stack sizes are kind of awkward for a turn check oop like this imo unless you're planning on calling his AI on most (read: non diamond) rivers.

That said, I probably just bet the turn myself.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

bumping this because I think this hand deserves more discussion.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

In my experience, 20/13s generally have a very narrow 3bet calling range = 1010+/AK ... I really can't see CO holding something like 44-99. That being said what was his fold to flop bet percentage? If CO is floaty than I think an argument can be made for getting it AI on the turn, but I still don't like it.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

c/f. CO wasn't at all scared by SB being behind him still to act on the flop, and the PF cold call is TT-QQ a lot...CO will be happy to check down TT but will not call another bet very often, but he will prob be too stubborn to fold QQ.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the possibility that he's likely shoving this flop with QQ. Thoughts on that?

Re: JJ tough spot
 

No he's not. He is [b]likely[/] scared of the same AA/KK we are. He isn't shoving QQ, but he isn't folding it either.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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no, thats not what i said. i expect turn to go check/check pretty often

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if the turn goes check/check then we likely gave a free card to a 9-15 outer.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

fold pre. c/f flop. c/f turn

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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those hands arent floating the flop very often and if they do they are hardly ever putting another cent into the pot unless they improve. my point was that if you do manage to get it in here, his range is much closer to 88/QQ+ than what you listed above.

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lol what kind of nitty-ass TAGS are u playing that don't don't "float" that flop with 44-TT?

QQ is such a small part of his range here.

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What kind of retard TAGS do you play with that call this flop with 44?

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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fold pre. c/f flop. c/f turn

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Agreed, though I may call a flop bet.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

Ya, I am fine with a fold preflop. If the 30/21 is three betting pretty loosely you can 4bet and just get it in pre obviously too.

Since you called, I'd try to get to showdown by calling maybe one bet somewhere. I wouldn't have bet the flop.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

if an 18/12 3-bet pre-flop, then yes, folding is fine...but a 30/21 3-bet...come on now, we have to be way ahead of his range here. i will say though, that i like 4-betting better than calling.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

I don't mind PF against aggro SB. It is very close, and I def call QQ here. I check/call flop, and shutdown against button.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

bump, because im pretty interested in results now

also another point i thought i'd make:
i think a lot of guys saying that villain will stack off with worse/shove worse are assuming that he plays just like you do. just becasue you (2p2ers in genreral) play a hyperaggro/light call down game doesnt mean that most opponents do as well. asumming they will play a hand exactly how you would in their postion is a pretty bad way to go about playing the game.




also,
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if the turn goes check/check then we likely gave a free card to a 2 outer.

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Re: JJ tough spot
 

Preflop is ugly, and in the BB when CO/Button opens and SB 3-bets I think you should almost always be saying to yourself "3-bet or fold" no matter what you have.

CO may be only calling this flop with QQ because to him, your preflop cold-call has him saying WHAT THE [censored]? and he's worried you have AA/KK.

Preflop I think you should fold or 4-bet unless (as Isura pointed out) SB is very aggro and has a wide range. Even then I hate just calling because CO is going to be just as aware of SB's range and could 4-bet stuff like AQ because you just look weird with the pre-flop cold-call.

Whenever I see someone with TAG stats cold-call a 3-bet, I tend to put them on JJ or QQ (or someone who hasn't learned how to fold AK yet), but some people always put them on slow played rockets. Personally, I think if you never ever ever cold-call 3-bets no matter what you have, that's probably not too sub-optimal a strategy.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

Also, I'm not worried about being behind here. I would shove and hope for a hero call from TT or less.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

The way he played, CO has probably 88+ and maybe AQs+. Turn bet the pot.

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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fold pre. c/f flop. c/f turn

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you have to be on crazy pills, do you know mugatu?

Re: JJ tough spot
 

this forum gets so much nittier by the day, bump it to medium stakes and i guarentee much diff answers

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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this forum gets so much nittier by the day, bump it to medium stakes and i guarentee much diff answers

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lately its been everyone saying like fold overpair, i dont think he will c-bet without a monster, etc etc

o he def has the nuts cuz he bet so fold, etc etc

Re: JJ tough spot
 

ssnl has always been nitty

Re: JJ tough spot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
fold pre. c/f flop. c/f turn

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you have to be on crazy pills, do you know mugatu?
this forum gets so much nittier by the day, bump it to medium stakes and i guarentee much diff answers



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really.. i thouhgt penguin was from MSNL... or even HSNL?
and of course we'll get different answers to a lot of questionable hands. thats pretty obvious. 3/6 and 5/10 games play waaaaay different than 1/2.

so anytway, are we geting results?

Results
 

I shove the turn he calls with QQ.