First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

Villian is 30/21/1.6 over 200 hands, tell me what you guys think

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $594.00
BB: $600.00
UTG: $1,192.11
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $1,497.55</font>
BTN: $892.79

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22.00</font>, BTN calls $22.00, 2 folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($53) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $35.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $120.00</font>, Hero calls $85.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($293) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $170.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $500.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero ?</font>

what do you think about turn bet and what to do after the raise

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

Turn bet is fine if you have a plan when raised, whether it be folding or shoving.

Considering where you stopped the action, I'm guessing that it kind of sucks.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

is this a standard turn bet ?
i dont like it.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

i like the turn bet alot but I think I have to fold (though I would want to SD super bad) here his stats convince me to believe that he is somewhat sane.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

Hmm, looks like a fold on the turn. Do you bet with a plan of folding to raise?
I think its obv, that you have like TP with a reasonable kicker here, making it pretty easy for him to raise you.

All though I think I would check turn and see what he does.
The 4 is a good card for us, elemenating the possibility of 44 and 77 - which, if he has to, he certainly fastplay it!

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

if you're going to bet the turn, bet more.

important Q; does this opponent think you will 3-bet flop with a lot of hands?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to bet the turn, bet more.

[/ QUOTE ]
This depends so much on what you're trying to accomplish with the bet.

If you're planning on folding, a bigger bet might be better.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you're going to bet the turn, bet more.

important Q; does this opponent think you will 3-bet flop with a lot of hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't have many reads on opponent, i think the 200 hands i had on him were mostly datamined, i just went on his lagish stats

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

I'd bet something like 230 on turn and fold to a shove.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

45dd for the win

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

he's only 1.6 AF

dont you think we're beat here ?

what's the reasoning behind a turn bet here?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

ok i'll explain my play here because its certainly not standard.

The flop raise is fairly big, so coming back over the top would have gotten me commited right then and there... i wasn't prepared to do that so i just called. I wrote off JJ QQ KK AA because those are all 3 bet hands even for a nit (which he's not) especially on the button. He either has 44 66 or a flush draw. Its actually also slightly possible that he has 46 suited, considering his 30 vpip.

I was planning on checking the turn until that 4c came. Now he either has a flush draw, quads, or a full house. I bet the 170 for information, and i stand by that bet. I can get far more information with that bet size as opposed to 230, plus he's still getting bad odds with his flush draw. If we really wanna tear this hand apart, in retrospect i think 190 is the perfect bet.

I felt that my turn bet extracted the exact information i was looking for. That 500 raise is huge if he has a full house or quads. If he had that, he would WANT me to draw to my flush, and raise to 400. That $100 difference was absolutely crucial to me.

He COULD be raising me to 500 with his boat or quads, but he could have bet tons less, still got me commited, and have a higher chance of me calling. That 500 raise makes it 330 to me, and to be honest i want to call that MUCH MORE than if he shoved and it was another $580 to me. Shoving to my bet is a decent play with the full house, quads, or the flush draw. I muck my hand instantly if he shoves. I also probably instamuck my hand if he raises me anywhere from a minraise to 400... cause it looks like he's trying to keep me in. But that 500.... its just a bad bet.

So i shove come back over the top for his last 250 and he calls, i'll post results after a few more replies and thoughts to my breakdown

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's only 1.6 AF

dont you think we're beat here ?

what's the reasoning behind a turn bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

typo 2.6

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

nice timing, totally changes the hand

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
nice timing, totally changes the hand

[/ QUOTE ]

are you implying with "nice timing" that i lied?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

looks like it turned out to be a genius shove. well played.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

k just read your thesis, and you don't seem to be taking into account that he might have 66/64, and is betting so large on the turn because he DOESN'T want the flush/straight to get there, so that he can get as much money in as possible vs your AJ/QQ+?

y'know, just a thought? what in particular about your play would lead him to believe that you had a draw?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

to ipoker,

I did take 66 into account but i really don't think he plays it this way. Even the flop raise is huge (even if its 10-20 too high, its high). I know that fastplaying is the new slowplaying, but if he has 66 he is playing it TOO fast.

Also, my play is very very representative of a flush draw (also of a jack good kicker). Calling the flop raise and making a semi weak bet on turn in an attempt to save myself from a huge flush block bet is quite apparent here.

I don't see what you're saying about the flush draw.... if he has a full house, why wouldn't he want a flush to get there. The only thing that BEATS me is a full house or quads, so why wouldn't he want a flush to hit?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

because then you'll fold an overpair/TPTK that you're worried about protecting, which is your most reasonable holding from his perspective. you look like you have exactly what you have, AJ/QQ+ that decided not to 3-bet ai on the flop because he wanted to see a good turn card come off because he knew that if he got AI on the flop, he'd only get into coinflips and be behind sets, whereas if he gets in on a safe turn he can maximize equity vs draws. i.e., you probably have AJ/QQ+ and he is playing accordingly.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

i agree with you on a lot of that ipoker, except where you say maximize equity. Perhaps i'm looking far too much into this, but the 500 bet threw me off. If he's trying to maximize his equity, i really can't see a raise over ~420 here. Sure, if he thinks i'll fold if a diamond comes then what you're saying makes sense, but since his raise is that much bigger, i'm going to fold more often with AJ+ and QQ+.

edit - i know my last sentence proves your theory, which is that i will fold AJ+ and QQ+ more often. Thats kind of my point as well, but from a different perspective. It FEELS like he wants me to fold... yet he's building a big pot. I think he has much higher equity with a smaller raise.

if he has the quads or boat, he'll get me committed MUCH more often with a smaller bet, and also get me to fold my AJ+ and QQ+ NEARLY as often as the 500.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

not if you think that a bigger raise = a draw, and a smaller raise = very strong, which is what most decent players think.

also i tried not to say this but i'll say it now; i think that your analysis of bet sizes is totally arbitrary and really out there in terms of validity.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think that your analysis of bet sizes is totally arbitrary and really out there in terms of validity.

[/ QUOTE ]

normally i'd agree with you but in this hand, deepstacked, it felt like 500 served no purpose other than to push me out

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

anyways, worked out for me this time, i appreciate all the thoughts on the hand guys

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $594.00
BB: $600.00
UTG: $1,192.11
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $1,497.55</font>
BTN: $892.79

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22.00</font>, BTN calls $22.00, 2 folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($53) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $35.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $120.00</font>, Hero calls $85.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($293) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $170.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $500.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $1,355.55</font>, BTN calls all-in for $250.79
Uncalled bet of $604.76 returned to Hero

<font color="black">River:</font> ($1794.58) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $1,794.58 ($2 Rake)

BTN had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Fours) and LOST (-$892.79)
Hero had J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pairs, Jacks and Fours) and WON (+$899.79)

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

i wasn't saying that you should fold, what i was saying is that your analysis isn't rock-solid. it's a close decision and involves more guesswork than you're trying to suggest.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

also, can any 3/6 regulars tell me if i'm reading too much into these bet sizes? It felt like he was trying to push me out from the very beginning. I understand that a lot of 1/2 2/4 or 5/10 people might be posting here, but try and understand how even a few dollars extra can represent a lot of extra strength.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, can any 3/6 regulars tell me if i'm reading too much into these bet sizes? It felt like he was trying to push me out from the very beginning. I understand that a lot of 1/2 2/4 or 5/10 people might be posting here, but try and understand how even a few dollars extra can represent a lot of extra strength.

[/ QUOTE ]
well i am personally horrible, but i really don't believe that a few dollars extra in a $500+ pot should be changing your read, since i usually just haphazardly grab the slider and pull it to somewhere that feels acceptable, and i have never ever made a read based on a few dollars in a big pot.

but then again i suck so maybe everyone else has already caught on

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

that 1.6 vs 2.6 is crucial in this hand.

someone with a 1.6 aggression factor will almost never raise a FD. so you would almost always be looking at a fh or better.

as it turns out, nice hand and nice read.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

ipoker, sorry i wasn't specific enough... i was mostly talking about the 120 flop raise. Thats ~20 higher than standard. The 500 bet was clearly quite large, around 100 higher than standard

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
someone with a 1.6 aggression factor will almost never raise a FD. so you would almost always be looking at a fh or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. Also, do you guys have your "include preflop action in agression factor" checked?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, can any 3/6 regulars tell me if i'm reading too much into these bet sizes? It felt like he was trying to push me out from the very beginning. I understand that a lot of 1/2 2/4 or 5/10 people might be posting here, but try and understand how even a few dollars extra can represent a lot of extra strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, lots of players at this level give away way too much info with their bet sizing, esp e.g. with drawing hands. Obv the extra $$ not always extra strength though.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

People here are way overrated AF stats.

I like how you played it.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

I really like your thought process in the hand but I think its probably a little too advanced for party 3/6. Especially if you dont know/have any reads on villian.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
People here are way overrated AF stats.

I like how you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People here are way overrated AF stats.

I like how you played it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, altho is he was 1.6 AF it is so much less that there is less a chance of a draw than a 2.6 and it does need to be considered. it can swing a push to a fold

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

Looks like I'm late to the party, but here was my response after reading the initial hand (since I already typed it out).

66 or air here.

I don’t like the stop and go unless you put him squarely on a draw or know with reasonable certainty how he would play a draw / made hand when faced with your bet. As you are asking what action to take, we can rule out the latter which leaves us with the fact that, in order for the stop n go to be any good, you must have villain squarely on a draw or air.

Not sure what he thinks you hold here that could call his raise. Doesn’t look like he has a boat to me unless he believes some 4s to be in your range.

While at first I thought it was a fold, I think you have to shove this one and expect to see a funky draw / combo draw fairly often like KJd or QJd.

After results: Unfortunately, I think I might have folded in the few seconds they give you to think during a hand.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

Does anyone think a three bet on the flop is better than the turn lead?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

Nobody think about folding the flop ?
Of course , if it is always a shoive bluff we are happy , but beside that ...

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
ipoker, sorry i wasn't specific enough... i was mostly talking about the 120 flop raise. Thats ~20 higher than standard. The 500 bet was clearly quite large, around 100 higher than standard

[/ QUOTE ] Min-raises are standard?

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ipoker, sorry i wasn't specific enough... i was mostly talking about the 120 flop raise. Thats ~20 higher than standard. The 500 bet was clearly quite large, around 100 higher than standard

[/ QUOTE ] Min-raises are standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, he didn't even raise full pot on the flop. I think 120 is pretty standard.

NH tho, I like your flop/turn line assuming you know how he will react with a flush draw on the turn. However, it doesn't look like you did and based your decision off of some bet sizing that may or may not mean what you think it means.

Re: First hand i\'ve submitted - TPTK 150bbs deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, he didn't even raise full pot on the flop. I think 120 is pretty standard.

[/ QUOTE ]Right. And on the turn he raises half pot. If anything is non-standard about the turn bet it is that he didn't push.