3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

9 handed, Sat night, typical loose passive with a single wild maniac raising 50% PF including 56o.

limp, limp, fold, I limp red AA, limp, maniac raises, cold-call, SB and BB complete, two limpers call, I 3-bet, fold, maniac caps, everyone calls.

7 see the flop of: Tc, 9x, 8c
I bet, maniac raises, 5 callers, I call.

6 see the turn of: 6c
MP caller bets, I fold.....

Anybody think they can find a fold on the flop?

Anybody think they can find a raise on the turn?

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

First, I wouldn't have limp/rr'd AA here.

You have no reason to fold on the flop.

Turn fold is fine.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

grunch.

I wouldn't fold on the flop. Maniac raising doesn't mean much considering he will raise with anything.

I would fold to the mp donk bet however, on the turn.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

I'd raise preflop.

Well played post.

Re: Relative Position
 

I don't like the way you played this hand. Your PF play might seem clever knowing that you are likely going to trap the field for at least 3 and probably 4 SB PF; however, the other 50% of the time, the maniac just calls or folds and you miss your opportunity to exploid your edge.

Also, how has maniac responded to a raise in front of him. If he is 3-betting a lot, then I'm raising 110% of the time because I would love to play this HU against him, or at least shorthanded.

Now....your questions.

I would almost never fold this on the flop. I think the only time I'm folding this on the flop is if it goes - bet (you), raise, raise, cap. I don't consider folding this for 2SB cold on this flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Anybody think they can find a raise on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anybody think they can find a lighter to set your wallet on fire? How could you think about doing anything but folding the turn?


One more thing, while I like the reasoning behind the flop donk - (you know that maniac will insta raise, helping you protect your hand/ thin the field) - I think I would just c/c this flop. There are 3 reasons why c/c the flop is better than your donk:

1. First of all, if you check and the action is really heavy behind you - like if it gets capped or even 3-bet by passive player, you might be able to fold because you know that you're drawing almost dead.

2. More importantly, it will not protect your hand in a pot this huge, even if maniac raises anyone behind him is getting 14:1. Because you have wonderful position relative to maniac, I would plan on waiting for the turn. If the turn comes a safe card, then I donk into maniac and pray that he raises. Do the math on that.

3. Your equity will change a ton on the turn. I would invest little on the flop when you know that your hand will be rendered useless on the turn probably half the time.

The best plan is to wait for the turn. If the turn is a blank, use your position relative to the maniac to protect your hand.

Re: Relative Position
 

Raise preflop.
I 3-bet the flop with that many callers.
Turn is an easy check/fold.

Re: Relative Position
 

Shove pf

Re: Relative Position
 

If maniac is the type to 3-bet you, you absolutely need to raise preflop. If he's not, you need a seat change. I don't like preflop at all. Plenty of people in 3/6 will cold call two bets, and once one person does it, so will everybody else. The only people you eliminate with your limp/raise are the few between you and maniac.

Don't get greedy.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

I don't know about the rest of these guys are hating on the PF play, but I love the thought of getting 7 people in the hand for 3 bets. In the long rund, that's more $$$ for us. Limp re-raise is good.

This flop/turn is going to suck for AA regardless of how much money is in the pot.

And there's no reason to move seats just because maniac is two to your left. That's a great place for him to be when you want to check-raise with a big draw or a big made hand. Just know how you have to adapt your play with him there.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

I don't ever limp re-raise hands but that's not to say that it is bad just because I don't, I just prefer to raise with it. Any time I've ever seen a limp reraise it has always been AA. Once maybe KK. It's telling everyone what you have right there unless you have done it before with some other type of hand(or if they are truly clueless). Onthe other hand if you raise a variety of hands PF the players are not going to assume you have AA every time.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any time I've ever seen a limp reraise it has always been AA. Once maybe KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's when I like to limp/re-raise KJs or some other big implied-odds hand. But yeah, the default thinking is AA.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

I have to say that the PF limp-reraise of AA is something that I have done maybe once in the past year, but this seemed like the time to do it. I admit that I was purposefully getting "fancy" here. I don't remember where I read it, maybe SSHE or on this forum, but I recall a passage where some author stated that it is okay to be right of a maniac, because that allows you to raise a trapped field with the nuts. This seemed like exactly what was described. I was able to trap 7 players with the nuts. Seems like this worked out perfectly in this case. It is true that that I could have been burned if everyone checked through, but I figured there was a 50-50 chance I could scoop a big pot. I agree it was a greedy move, but I'm still not convinced that it was EV-. I'm thinking it was only variance increasing.

Another comment is that I have although I don't limp-reraise AA very often, in these loose games I not infrequently limp-reraise many low/mid pairs or suited broadway if there will likely be 6+ callers. Again it should be EV+ to jam the pot if you have a pocket pair and there are 6+ pairs. The suited broadway depends on how high.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

Awful limp PF. Flop is fine, check/raise a good turn. Fold this bad turn.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree it was a greedy move, but I'm still not convinced that it was EV-.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not -EV. Your chances of winning are probably well under 50% now. But there's 7 times what you invested in the pot. So more likely to get cracked, more likely to win WAY more $$$ the times that you win.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

It's pretty hard to make a EV- move pf holding AA, but some moves with AA are MORE EV+ than others...

Anyway, a couple of comments: calling AA the 'nuts' pf is true, but probably not what was being referred to by "trapping the field with the nuts", wherever you read that. I would guess that whoever said that was talking about later streets.

Unless you are sure that in your particular game and situation the field can't read your limp-RR for AA (or even limit your range to AA/KK/AKs), then I hate it. It announces your hand and allows the field to play perfectly against you, while you have very little idea what they are holding (because after all you trapped them into playing their hand), virtually guaranteeing the AA nightmare of winning a small pot or losing a big one. I haven't thought carefully about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if just limping is actually better than limp-RR, because then at least you have the power of deception on later streets and could win lots of bets from players holding top pair, or even better two pair with Ax in their hand and an A on board. (But if they suspect you have AA, which they will when you limp-RR pf, then at best they will call these hands down and more likely they'll know to fold.) But as others have pointed out, and you seem to agree anyway, raising is almost surely better. Hopefully maniac will 3-bet and at least get this pot shorthanded, which is of course what you want with AA.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

Preflop could be good good if you were UTG and maniac is UTG 1. Once two people limp just raise it the first time, you really don't care if maniac folds out the rest of the field and if the limpers fold then that's free money. Postflop is good.

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully maniac will 3-bet and at least get this pot shorthanded, which is of course what you want with AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

If everyone called 3 cold that is the best possible thing that could happen. Having a bunch of people overlimp after the pot's already this big kinda sucks though, which is why you generally shouldn't do this after 2 limpers.

Re: 3/6 live- when to dump AA check up
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop could be good good if you were UTG and maniac is UTG 1. Once two people limp just raise it the first time, you really don't care if maniac folds out the rest of the field and if the limpers fold then that's free money. Postflop is good.

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully maniac will 3-bet and at least get this pot shorthanded, which is of course what you want with AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

If everyone called 3 cold that is the best possible thing that could happen. Having a bunch of people overlimp after the pot's already this big kinda sucks though, which is why you generally shouldn't do this after 2 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

This explanation makes a lot of sense to me. thanks, Mr. C