QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

Villian is multi-tabling LAG, possibly 2p2. Runs about 21/11 over around 1k hands. I haven't done anything out of line in 2 or so orbits I've been at table and haven't seen anything out of line from him. He's been playing pretty aggressive, but hasn't 3bet since I've been at table (about 20 hands). Do I call this or does he always show up with AA or KK here? If this is clear one way or the other them please let me know what the worst hand you call with is. Feel free to comment on preflop or flop raise, but they seem pretty standard to me.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($57.50)
MP1 ($101)
MP2 ($59)
MP3 ($18.35)
CO ($50)
Hero ($62.70)
SB ($14.30)
Villian ($73.55)
UTG ($49.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villian raises to $8</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $5.50.

Flop: ($16.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Villian bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villian raises to $65.55</font>, Hero ???

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

I don't raise the flop

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

not to sound like a prick, but ask yourself *why* you're raising the flop if you're unsure of how to respond to a shove and you'll realize why it's not the greatest play.

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
not to sound like a prick, but ask yourself *why* you're raising the flop if you're unsure of how to respond to a shove and you'll realize why it's not the greatest play.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you would only raise the flop with air or something that you will call a shove?

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

sorta, yeah. If I'm raising for value because I think I'm ahead of his range, or to induce a push because I think he'll stack off lightly, then it's an easy call(of the shove). If I'm raising as a bluff or "for information" or "to find out if he has AK", then it's an easy fold.

Calling the flop is much better. Since most TAGs at this level won't religiously double barrel AK, you can call the flop and fold to a turn bet knowing you likely folded the second best hand.

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

This guy will definitely 2 barrel AK and I know that so what is our turn plan after smooth calling? Guess I should have put that in the OP. But if his 3bet range is 1010+ and AK and he will 2 barrel the whole range sometimes and other times he will check the whole range (by that I mean he will 2 barrel AK some and check turn with AA some) what would my turn plan be as we are still stuck right in the middle of his range. This is against a compotent NL50 player is what I'm trying to say.

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

what you're asking depends entirely on villain's value bettting/bluffing frequencies.

For example, if his 3-betting range is TT+/AK, and he double barrels his entire range 100% of the time, then I'd call the flop and also call a non A/K turn, since we're ahead more often then not (pokerstove it if you don't believe me).

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This guy will definitely 2 barrel AK and I know that so what is our turn plan after smooth calling? Guess I should have put that in the OP. But if his 3bet range is 1010+ and AK and he will 2 barrel the whole range sometimes and other times he will check the whole range (by that I mean he will 2 barrel AK some and check turn with AA some) what would my turn plan be as we are still stuck right in the middle of his range. This is against a compotent NL50 player is what I'm trying to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

let him shove with TT, JJ AK then

raising just gets the hands you beat to fold which can be fine but if he's going to put in more money with hands you beat let him

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

If I unerstand this correctly you are both saying that this raise should basically always be air? I'm just trying to clarify (sorry if its coming across badly). This is definitely not my standard play and thats part of the reason I had a tough decision.

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I unerstand this correctly you are both saying that this raise should basically always be air? I'm just trying to clarify (sorry if its coming across badly). This is definitely not my standard play and thats part of the reason I had a tough decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

not exactly, I'd raise the flop where I felt comfortable folding to the shove, or calling the shove and I wouldn't always raise with hands I was autocalling the shove either

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

Ok. Sorry for the really confusing post as I don't usually post like this, but I was BB and the btn (Hero in this hand) was CMAR. I was trying to get a feel for what he would raise me with that folded to a shove, but in retrospect this probably wasn't the best way to approach it. If Cry would chime in that would be great, but if he doesn't want to say what he had then thats ok too.

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

sorry I forgot about this thread...

I wasn't suggesting that every time I raise this flop (or any flop for that matter), I have the nuts or air. I'm just trying get you, or CMAR, or anyone else who would raise in this spot, to think and understand *WHY* they're raising. Is it for value? Protection? Information? As a bluff?
Telling you not to raise the flop without explaining why won't really help you or anyone else.

And thinking about this type of stuff should get you to realize why calling in this spot is probably a better play.

P.S. I hope I'm not coming off as a douche in these posts, but thinking on this level has really opened up my game.

Re: QQ in 3bet pot, facing shove on flop (NL50)
 

No, I undestand that, but I was just trying to figure what he would raise/fold in that spot, but I didn't post in a manner that allowed for that discussion easily. I have no idea what he actually held in this spot. FWIW, I smooth call here over 90% of the time and decide whether to commit on the turn most times if I have QQ.