Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

1/2 NL game:
First player raises to $6
Second player throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything.

Is this a call or a raise to $10?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

As long as he puts them out together, that is a raise to $10.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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As long as he puts them out together, that is a raise to $10.

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Everywhere I have played, this is the wrong answer. Unless he says raise, this is a call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

I vote for "call". The intent is ambiguous. A single $5 isn't enough to call so the player had to put out more than one to do the call. Since he said nothing, you go with the least aggressive choice. If he put out 3 $5's, it's a raise. Two $25's is a raise. Ten $1's is a raise. A $25 and a $5 is a raise. But two $5's is a call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

I see your point. Ignore my answer OP.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Sigh...just say what you are going to do. Look at the dealer and say two words...either "I call" or "I raise". It's not *that* hard [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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I vote for "call". The intent is ambiguous. A single $5 isn't enough to call so the player had to put out more than one to do the call. Since he said nothing, you go with the least aggressive choice.

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To the best of my knowledge, none of the casinos I've played in would rule this way.

In general, any money you put in the middle is a bet or raise, with very few exceptions. One of those exceptions is if you put out a single chip worth more than the current bet to you (without saying raise). But put out two chips, and you're back into the "default" behavior of betting/raising to whatever amount you put out there.

Remember, calling your actions is optional. And while it is within the realm of possibility that many people would want to put out two chips worth more than the current bet and consider it a call, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and by and large it has been drawn: the "one chip rule." It's pretty standard.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

I vote for call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

On HSP, $300/600 blinds, a player throws out 2 $500 chips. Call?

I think this is a raise, for no other reason than the fact that everyone seems to think this is a call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

I agree, it is a call.

The "One Chip" rule comes into play a lot at a home game I frequent. Some of these people can be a pain and will argue this point since it is not "One Chip".

Since $10 is a valid raise, and it was put out there, someone will argue it is a raise and not a call.

Can someone word this so when this comes up I can explain it to irrational people?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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On HSP, $300/600 blinds, a player throws out 2 $500 chips. Call?

I think this is a raise, for no other reason than the fact that everyone seems to think this is a call.

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a raise has to be to 1200 on hsp. two purples is a clear call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Here is the problem.

If you keep calling this the single chip or one chip rule, those people will not be iorrational in arguing that TWO CHIPS IS NOT ONE CHIP OR A SINGLE CHIP.

Perhaps its time the single oversized chip rule got a new name, because I tend to agree with those irrational people if the rule is that a single oversized chip is a call, they are correct. the rule should be written something along the lines of.

"When a chip or chips are placed into the pot without a verbal declaration and the chip or chips are of denominations which could consist of a call (with change) or a raise, then it will be ruled to be a call."

sure someone could come up with better language, but the point is that if the rule refers to a single oversized chip the rule fails to address the issue of two chips.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

"Ambiguous Bet Rule" ?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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"Ambiguous Bet Rule" ?

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That works as a title.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

And how about:

"If a bet is placed consisting of one or more chips of a single denomination, and if this is the minimum number of this denomination of chips required to call the current bet, and no verbal declaration or gesture has been made to indicate a raise, than the bet shall constitute a call."

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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And how about:

"If a bet is placed consisting of one or more chips of a single denomination, and if this is the minimum number of this denomination of chips required to call the current bet, and no verbal declaration or gesture has been made to indicate a raise, than the bet shall constitute a call."

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One could argue that tossing in a higher value of chips would precisely constitue a gesture indicating the bettor wanted to raise.

I think there should be a rule mandating a verbal declaration of all raises. The bettor must say, "raise." How hard is that?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

According to every set of rules I have ever seen, this is a clear "call".

The "one chip rule" should definitely be renamed to the "unclear bet rule" like someone else said on here. The reason is that a dealer or the table is completely unclear on what the person acting is intending to do. The rule should be rewritten something along these lines...

If there is a bet earlier in the round, and a player throws in enough chips to where the final chip thrown in makes the range of the total (example bet is 600, player throws in two 500 chips therefore making the "range" of the two chips thrown out 501-1000)amount of the call and the player does not announce raise, it is a call.

To raise without saying raise in this instance, you must throw out an extra chip to where the range is enough to be able to make a raise, and the raise is either the minimum raise allowed (if there is a 1000 chip bet and you throw three 500 chips out, you would have to make the minimum raise to 2000), or the full amount of the chips thrown out.

I know it sounds confusing but I think you get the general idea of what I mean.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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1/2 NL game:
First player raises to $6
Second player throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything.
Is this a call or a raise to $10?

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I dont see how this is a call. 1/2 blinds, first raise is 4 more to 6 total. Player throws out 10 which is 4 more (the minimum raise allowable). Dealer should announce "raise to 10" and if the player says "no, it's just a call" before any action takes place, then it's a call. Otherwise, the bet is 100% correct for the minimum raise. It's not 1 chip and the 1 chip rule has virtually nothing to do with 2 chips being thrown in at the same time.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Wow...maybe I should have done a poll.

According to Robert's Rules, this appears to be raise to $10. The only relevant rule I think is:

"If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called.

But I think I've seen this happen in 1/2 games several times, and it is always assumed to be a call without anyone even noticing that it could be a raise.

Glad I'm not the only one who finds this confusing.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

This may not be as intuitive, but the "one chip" rule applies. As the rule is written, it says one "oversized chip" is a call and not a raise. In the example, the first $5 chip is insufficient to call the current bet of $6. Thus, the player must put in an additional chip. An additional $1 chip would make everything perfect. However, if the player puts in an additional oversized chip here, it is still just a call. Thus, the only relevant chip is the one that brings the player up to (or beyond) a call.

That may be a stretch... but that's why I play a lawyer in real life.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

The single chip rule obviously doesn not apply here. I would rule it a raise, just the same as throwing out 10 $1 chips. I think you have to say "call" before doing this if that is your intention.

But I would rule it a call if the first player had raised to $7 since he did not reach the min-raise amount.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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But I think I've seen this happen in 1/2 games several times, and it is always assumed to be a call without anyone even noticing that it could be a raise.


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This is because in most 1/2 games no one raises to 6 or 10, its usually 12-15 to go preflop.

I agree with the way we are re-painting the one-chip rule to include multiple chips. It has been hard enough in these home games for everyone to understand the one-chip rule as it stands now to try and add another level to it.

I wish everyone would just declare "raise" when they want to raise.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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1/2 NL game:
First player raises to $6
Second player throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything.
Is this a call or a raise to $10?

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I dont see how this is a call. 1/2 blinds, first raise is 4 more to 6 total. Player throws out 10 which is 4 more (the minimum raise allowable). Dealer should announce "raise to 10" and if the player says "no, it's just a call" before any action takes place, then it's a call. Otherwise, the bet is 100% correct for the minimum raise. It's not 1 chip and the 1 chip rule has virtually nothing to do with 2 chips being thrown in at the same time.

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The thing about this rule is that the bet should never be unclear to the table. You should never have to ask a player if he is raising or calling unless he mumbles something and you are unclear on what he said. Throwing two five dollar chips out makes it unclear and as a poster said before, you go with the least aggressive action.

However, if you throw out a red, and five white you have a raise every time. Because you are making it crystal clear that you are intending to make it ten dollars straight.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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The single chip rule obviously doesn not apply here. I would rule it a raise, just the same as throwing out 10 $1 chips. I think you have to say "call" before doing this if that is your intention.


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Throwing out 10 $1 chips is obviously a raise because it can't be anything else. When there is ambiguity due to the "last significant chip" being oversized, it is a call.

Maybe it should be called the "last significant chip rule"?

Nah... not catchy enough.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

In any casino I have played in Atlantic City, the dealers would consider this a call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Actually it is not the same as throwing at 10 $1 chips. 6 whites would be sufficient to call so the 4 extras are an obvious raise. One red still doesn't complete the call, so the extra chip is ambiguous. Every card room I have played in has ruled it this way.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Interesting:

over-sized chip rule

(n phrase) The rule, enforced in many cardrooms, that, when responding to action, a player puts into the pot a single chip or bill with a denomination larger than the bet indicated at that juncture, but does not announce a raise, that player's action is ruled to have been only a call. The over-sized chip or bill rule also applies when more than one chip is necessary to call a bet, but the last chip might be construed as a raise. The preceding applies to all rounds in limit games. In no-limit games, on the first round, the opening bet made with an over-sized chip or bill on the first round is considered a call of the bring-in amount; on any succeeding round, the first bet is equal to the size of over-sized chip or bill, unless an announcement to the contrary is made....

Found here: http://www.planetpoker.com/games/dictionary/

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

I have not seen a rule on this. I have only heard of the one chip rule for a large denomination chip. If there is some two chip rule, I'd like to see it. Is there a three chip rule?

As far as I know, if you put chips over the line with no verbal declaration, then that's your action. If it's a single large chip it's a call. If it's more than one chip, it's the total amount of the two to one million chips you put into the pot.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Would anyone's answer change if the second player had enough one dollar chips in his stack?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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Would anyone's answer change if the second player had enough one dollar chips in his stack?

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Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack. Every place I have ever seen (and I have been all over) would rule this the same way if the floor person came over and had to make a decision.

Now I am not saying that there are house rules that change this, but I would say at least 99 percent of casinos rule it a call if you throw two five dollar chips in when it is six to go.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

At Crown Casino we have a tournament rule that states "if a player puts in two oversized chip which would constitute more than a call, but less than would constitute a raise, it shall be a call."

In short, it's a call.

It's a way of further clarifying the single oversized chip rule to include situations where a player puts in more than one single oversized chip.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
At Crown Casino we have a tournament rule that states "if a player puts in two oversized chip which would constitute more than a call, but less than would constitute a raise, it shall be a call."

In short, it's a call.

It's a way of further clarifying the single oversized chip rule to include situations where a player puts in more than one single oversized chip.

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I absolutely agree that if the two chips are not enough to make a raise, it would be a call.

The question is: what if the two chips are enough to make a legal raise? If player 1 raises from 2 to 6, player 2 could raise from 6 to 10 if he wanted.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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1/2 NL game:
First player raises to $6
Second player throws out two red ($5) chips without saying anything.
Is this a call or a raise to $10?

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I dont see how this is a call. 1/2 blinds, first raise is 4 more to 6 total. Player throws out 10 which is 4 more (the minimum raise allowable). Dealer should announce "raise to 10" and if the player says "no, it's just a call" before any action takes place, then it's a call. Otherwise, the bet is 100% correct for the minimum raise. It's not 1 chip and the 1 chip rule has virtually nothing to do with 2 chips being thrown in at the same time.

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The thing about this rule is that the bet should never be unclear to the table. You should never have to ask a player if he is raising or calling unless he mumbles something and you are unclear on what he said. Throwing two five dollar chips out makes it unclear and as a poster said before, you go with the least aggressive action.

However, if you throw out a red, and five white you have a raise every time. Because you are making it crystal clear that you are intending to make it ten dollars straight.

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The weird thing is, I think the "one chip rule" makes things less clear. If you wanted to make sure every bet was clear, you would just have a rule that every bet had to be exactly the size intended, and that a player should get change from the dealer before making the bet if necessary. The one chip rule is intended for speed, not clarity. So I don't see how applying the rule in this case makes the bet more clear.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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The weird thing is, I think the "one chip rule" makes things less clear.

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It's crystal clear. If there CAN be ambiguity, it's not a raise.

If you're facing a bet of $6 after a raise from $2, a single $10 chip or two $5 chips are effectively the same thing. They are the correct chips to put in to call the $6. They are also the correct amount to be a raise. If you don't speak up, it's a call. It makes no sense at all to say a single $10 is a call while two $5's is a raise. Just doesn't seem like this is difficult or fuzzy.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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The weird thing is, I think the "one chip rule" makes things less clear.

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It's crystal clear. If there CAN be ambiguity, it's not a raise.

If you're facing a bet of $6 after a raise from $2, a single $10 chip or two $5 chips are effectively the same thing. They are the correct chips to put in to call the $6. They are also the correct amount to be a raise. If you don't speak up, it's a call. It makes no sense at all to say a single $10 is a call while two $5's is a raise. Just doesn't seem like this is difficult or fuzzy.

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Then why does it may sense that if the bet is $2, a single $10 chip would be a call but two $5's would be a raise? A raise to $10 is legal in both cases.

If you are looking for clarity, isn't the easiest answer to assume that the person intended to bet what he actually bet, unless he verbally specified something different?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack.

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So if I put out two chips and those two chips add up to a raise, then it's not a raise because it looks like a call?

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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I dont see how this is a call. 1/2 blinds, first raise is 4 more to 6 total. Player throws out 10 which is 4 more (the minimum raise allowable). Dealer should announce "raise to 10" and if the player says "no, it's just a call" before any action takes place, then it's a call. Otherwise, the bet is 100% correct for the minimum raise. It's not 1 chip and the 1 chip rule has virtually nothing to do with 2 chips being thrown in at the same time.

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I agree. Action is as follows:

SB : $1
BB : $2
P1 : $6 (+$4) (1st raise)
P2 : $10 (+$4) (2nd raise) (multiple chips, no verbal declaration)

Unless verbally declared as a call, P2's action is a binding raise.


q/q

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

It's a minraise. Everyone that says it is a call is wrong.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

Call. I've seen the rule implemented with two red chips in the $1/2 game, and with two green chips in a $5/10 after a $30 raise. In both situations it was a call and the player received change. In fact, I've never seen anyone make this ambiguous bet and mean for it to be a raise without saying "raise". Simply by that empirical evidence, I'd rule it a call.

Re: Question on raising/\"one chip rule\"
 

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It's a minraise. Everyone that says it is a call is wrong.

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Have you ever seen it intended and ruled this way without a verbal declaration?