Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
You're missing that 1. You don't have any kids to pay for, 2. I don't know what your definition of reasonable is, 3. I'm guessing you make more money than the majority of Americans and 4. You're not sick. Good luck getting a reasonable price with a pre-existing condition.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

#4: so, pre-existing conditions are a big issue?

#2: Reasonable--When I get sick or injured, there is a nearby location that can treat me in a timely manner. Most of the bill (about 90%) is covered by the insurance. All for less than $1,500 per year.

#1--no kids myself (at least none I know of). I asked people about this very subject recently. It seemed that kids were about the same price or just a little more than most adults for a year's worth of insurance. That didn't seem unreasonable to me.


#3: is very, very wrong. I wish it wasn't true, but I've never earned more than $25k/yr. I have no other sources of income. Money isn't that important to me or my interests. I live in the US in 2007. I live a pretty sweet life.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

I'm going to guess that to get 90% of your health care costs covered, your premimum is about $200 a month. At $25k/year, you pull in about $1800/month after taxes. So you're spending 10% of your take home pay on health insurance, not too bad. But keep in mind that young adults are about the cheapest people to insure because they have the fewest health problems. If you are 55 years old, probably double that to $400 a month. Probably the same if you have healthy kids. I'll also guess that your rent is $800/month for a two bedroom, which you'll need if you have kids.

So by my wild guesses at your finances, if you have kids you are spending $1200 a month, leaving $600 a month for food, transportation, clothes and everything else. Doesn't seem like much, does it?

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

kids are a decision

as well as living with a partner for said kids

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

You don't just have kids by random chance. If someone making 25k a year does this analysis, and discovers they can't afford to have kids, then they shouldn't be having any. And if they don't do the analysis, why should they expect someone else to pay for their kids? Why should "we" pay people for having kids they can't afford? Having someone support your brood isn't a right.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
kids are a decision

as well as living with a partner for said kids

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't argue with this. However, most people in this country believe that you should be able to have kids if you want. In fact, I think there was a Supreme Court decision that being able to have kids is a Constitutional right. I'm sure they wouldn't go so far as to mandate government subsidies, but being for kids is widely popular. This isn't a case of politicians demagoging, it's what most people want.

Add to this the sentiment that we shouldn't punish children for the mistakes of their parents. It's not the kid's fault that their parents were stupid or poor. Add on actually getting sick and using up your coverage or not being able to get coverage and it becomes a huge problem. Health costs are the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in this country.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Add to this the sentiment that we shouldn't punish children for the mistakes of their parents. It's not the kid's fault that their parents were stupid or poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's certainly not MY fault.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
kids are a decision

as well as living with a partner for said kids

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't argue with this. However, most people in this country believe that you should be able to have kids if you want. In fact, I think there was a Supreme Court decision that being able to have kids is a Constitutional right. I'm sure they wouldn't go so far as to mandate government subsidies, but being for kids is widely popular. This isn't a case of politicians demagoging, it's what most people want.

Add to this the sentiment that we shouldn't punish children for the mistakes of their parents. It's not the kid's fault that their parents were stupid or poor. Add on actually getting sick and using up your coverage or not being able to get coverage and it becomes a huge problem. Health costs are the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is funny, b/c unpaid medical bills are actually the least damaging kind of unpaid bills to your credit.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, most people in this country believe that you should be able to have kids if you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should too! but you shouldn't expect people you never met to help pay for them. They're really expensive, and it's a huge responsibility to bring a human into the world. Incentivizing people to do so who can't bear the burden is terrible.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

is bankruptcy not considered a 'safety net'?

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

1. Overcrowding in some hospitals
2. Double digit % increase in health care costs per year
3. Government responsible for increasing citizens with Medicare/Medicaid
4. Large amount of freeloaders in our hospitals who are unable to pay.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

Maybe enought people don't hear the day to day horror stories of poor people on welfare having kids that are abused/neglected and taken away by the state.

Or they don't know that it is fashionable in certain circles for young women to have kids so they get a free apartment, money, etc. This is a big + to a high school drop out living at home with their parent(s).

Maybe if the news put stories like that on the front page a couple times a week most people would change their minds.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt any single men <40 have any complaints. under 30 anyway.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
is bankruptcy not considered a 'safety net'?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is, but to use it you have to 1. be financially devastated and 2. pass the costs onto the hospital. This is the system we have now, but is it ideal? Should we expect hosptials to pay for care or the government? The way the system is set up now, the insured subsidize the uninsured.

Also, hospitals aren't stupid: they will absolutely deny care or give you bare bones care if they suspect you can't pay, which if you don't have insurance you probably can't.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
most people in this country believe that you should be able to have kids if you want. In fact, I think there was a Supreme Court decision that being able to have kids is a Constitutional right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right to have kids =/= right to make others pay for them.
[ QUOTE ]
Add to this the sentiment that we shouldn't punish responsible taxpayers for the mistakes of people they don't know . It's not the taxpayers's fault that some person they don't know is stupid or poor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

the real problem is that the health care industry has built this giant industry focused on high cost treatment and especially high cost end of life treatment, and now they need a way to get people to pay for it.

Since people can't pay for it, the obvious choice is to shift it to the gov.

An analogous situation was mutual funds and how they got more money into the market, although that was private sector, well with gov tax breaks.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

good, good

so far, I have:

*those with pre-existing conditions have trouble obtaining reasonably priced insurance

*insurance for children who live in poverty household incomes

*expensive end of life treatments

*who pays for defaults on payments

*large percentage increase in costs during recent times

I'm learning quite a bit.
Don't think it's a crisis, but I see some issues.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I understand, it's basically the same as the pony crisis.

* I want ponies.

* I want someone else to pay for those ponies.

* Nobody is getting off their ass to buy ponies for me.

Hence, crisis. We need decisive action from a bold leader willing to make sacrifices in order to make this happen.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to guess that to get 90% of your health care costs covered, your premimum is about $200 a month. At $25k/year, you pull in about $1800/month after taxes. So you're spending 10% of your take home pay on health insurance, not too bad. But keep in mind that young adults are about the cheapest people to insure because they have the fewest health problems. If you are 55 years old, probably double that to $400 a month. Probably the same if you have healthy kids. I'll also guess that your rent is $800/month for a two bedroom, which you'll need if you have kids.

So by my wild guesses at your finances, if you have kids you are spending $1200 a month, leaving $600 a month for food, transportation, clothes and everything else. Doesn't seem like much, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are are fifty five years old, making $25,000/year and have kids, you're a [censored] retard, a drain on society, and we're probably better off without you.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
From what I understand, it's basically the same as the pony crisis.

* I want ponies.

* I want someone else to pay for those ponies.

* Nobody is getting off their ass to buy ponies for me.

Hence, crisis. We need decisive action from a bold leader willing to make sacrifices in order to make this happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe, it's
hey I've got a lot of ponies for sale, real good expensive ponies,
everybody wants one but no one wants to pay for one,
I've tapped the market out, but I want to sell more

somebody (big brother) help me out!

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I understand, it's basically the same as the pony crisis.

* I want ponies.

* I want someone else to pay for those ponies.

* Nobody is getting off their ass to buy ponies for me.

Hence, crisis. We need decisive action from a bold leader willing to make sacrifices in order to make this happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great analogy ... if not having a pony means a death sentence to many.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I understand, it's basically the same as the pony crisis.

* I want ponies.

* I want someone else to pay for those ponies.

* Nobody is getting off their ass to buy ponies for me.

Hence, crisis. We need decisive action from a bold leader willing to make sacrifices in order to make this happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

*phew* this thread was looking far too serious. Glad to see pvn swooped in to fix that right quick.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great analogy ... if not having a pony means a death sentence to many.

[/ QUOTE ]

Life is a death sentence.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

I don't know about anyone else, but I can tell you my friend's story. He was a professional attorney. Worked in a large firm. Had health insurance through the firm because it was mandated by law. Firm chose a few policies to choose from and you had to pay a share of it. They decided that it wasn't fair to the people with kids to pay more money for health insurance so they chose a plan whereby if you have one spouse or one spouse and 16 kids it costs the same. (So the burden of those kids' insurance was borne by the childless couples).

Idiot, that he was, he did not realize that it would cost him the same to have private insurance. He paid an additional 400 buck per month to have my insurance.

Then he got sick. Very sick. Had to stop working. Went on Cobra. Got 18 months of insurance. When the cobra runs out he will need private insurance. There is this Hipaa policy that he can get that will help (available only to people who were on Cobra) so his insurance for himself only will only go up to 1400 per month. (This is almost breaking even for him, but if he needs an operation it will cost 2 mil. or he dies, so he must pay.)

If he moves out of the state he will lose the hipaa insurance and need to get regular private insurance. That will cost him 4500 per month.

Had the gov't not interfered and "forced" his company to have insurance he would have got it privately. It would have cost him several thousand less a year because he did not have kids. When he got sick his premiums would not have gone up, and he would still be covered.

Oh, and for all you SS lovers out there. Because he got sick he had to stop working. Lucky he had private disability insurance that pays 60% of his salary. It started the 2nd week he was out of work. As a part of that private contract he was forced to apply for SS disability to offset if possible. SS came through. It pays 1/4 of what the private disability paid. It costs 15 times as much for the coverage, oh, and yeah, it took 18 months before the first check arrived.

Lesson: get your own bloody insurance. Don't depend on the stuff you get from your job. And get your own private disability insurance. Cheap as hell and worth every penny. And if you buy it yourself (he did not it was paid for by his job) then if you get sick all your payments are tax free, because his firm paid the premium his payments are fully taxable.

Plus, he made the horrid mistake of trying to work as long as he could and even went down to part time to keep working. This "good deed" was punished because the insurance co. only pays him 60% of his last paycheck, not what he was making before he got sick. So it is better to be a deadbeat.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great analogy ... if not having a pony means a death sentence to many.

[/ QUOTE ]

Life is a death sentence.

[/ QUOTE ]
"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

Just wanted to say a quote from one of my favorite movies. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great analogy ... if not having a pony means a death sentence to many.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have any of you liberals ever taken a minute to think about just who is going to die if we de-regulate health care?

Most of America is insured as it is, and the status quo isn't making a whole lot of money. Now let's do the following:

- Stop forcing all these Americans to pay the Medicare/aid taxes that they're getting nothing for. Their bills will also be lower, because they're not picking up the slack for treatments that medicare/aid only partially paid for.

- Deregulate the insurance carriers so that the customers can actually choose what they do and do not want to be covered for.

- End the war on drugs, and thus make all the drugs cheaper.

- Reform the tort system so that doctors don't have to pay six figures in malpractice insurance every year.

Insurance will become very, very affordable, and many more Americans will have it.

The only people that won't have it under such conditions are the dregs of society. Drug addicts, lazy bums, criminals, those with horribly untreatable physical conditions...these are the people who are going to die. You know good ol' middle class hard-working Joe? Joe is going to benefit from this system. He's not going to get hurt. You know that perennially unemployed pothead friend-of-a-friend of yours who sleeps on the couch all the time? He's going to be screwed.

It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

Still sound like a good idea?

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love reading your posts and enjoy you as a poster, but reading this frightens me. Your willingness to cast aside another human is scary.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love reading your posts and enjoy you as a poster, but reading this frightens me. Your willingness to cast aside another human is scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that there are limited funds in the world. You can (almost) always increase someones lifespan some amount of money. Until you use all of the funds in the world to keep people alive because it is "casting another human aside". I highly doubt you feel this way, that every last dollar should be spent if it can keep someone alive a day longer.

So you don't really disagree with him that "casting aside another human being" is a problem. Just you disagree with when it is ok to do so.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only people that won't have it under such conditions are the dregs of society. Drug addicts, lazy bums, criminals, those with horribly untreatable physical conditions...these are the people who are going to die. You know good ol' middle class hard-working Joe? Joe is going to benefit from this system. He's not going to get hurt. You know that perennially unemployed pothead friend-of-a-friend of yours who sleeps on the couch all the time? He's going to be screwed.

It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't socialism helping these guys now anyway? I mean I've heard of people getting SSI disability because of "alchoholism". don't they get free health care with that too? I mean I'm sure they don't get million dollar treatment, but I think they get some sort of governemnt medical plan.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

Just a few minutes of internet time gave me this:

Government Information

More stuff

Blue Cross Blue Shield

Quotes etc

Then there is this rather intersting article from the NY Times: Oh! Canada

Then there is Mitt's forced Heatlh plan coverage under penalty of fine: Mitt's Remedy

Here is the stinger from Mitt: "Gov. Mitt Romney (R) supports the proposal, which would require all uninsured adults in the state to purchase some kind of insurance policy by July 1, 2007, or face a fine. Their choices would be expanded to include a range of new and inexpensive policies -- ranging from about $250 per month to nearly free -- from private insurers subsidized by the state."

Enjoy.

-Zeno

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

First rule of government

Identify a problem where there is none

second rule

Involve government in non problem so problem is created.

third rule

As real problem is worsened by govt, claim more govt is needed to fix problem.

fourth rule

repeat rule 3 as often as possible

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love reading your posts and enjoy you as a poster, but reading this frightens me. Your willingness to cast aside another human is scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

The alternative, a world where the productive are sentenced to indentured slavery to anyone that can't take care of himself, is much scarier.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only people that won't have it under such conditions are the dregs of society. Drug addicts, lazy bums, criminals, those with horribly untreatable physical conditions...these are the people who are going to die. You know good ol' middle class hard-working Joe? Joe is going to benefit from this system. He's not going to get hurt. You know that perennially unemployed pothead friend-of-a-friend of yours who sleeps on the couch all the time? He's going to be screwed.

It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't socialism helping these guys now anyway? I mean I've heard of people getting SSI disability because of "alchoholism". don't they get free health care with that too? I mean I'm sure they don't get million dollar treatment, but I think they get some sort of governemnt medical plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can work, we just need to throw more money into it.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love reading your posts and enjoy you as a poster, but reading this frightens me. Your willingness to cast aside another human is scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't use force to restrain you from helping those people with your own money. So what's the problem? Oh, right...

* I want XYZ

* I want someone else to pay for XYZ

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love reading your posts and enjoy you as a poster, but reading this frightens me. Your willingness to cast aside another human is scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't use force to restrain you from helping those people with your own money. So what's the problem? Oh, right...

* I want XYZ

* I want someone else to pay for XYZ

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'm an anarchist. That game doesn't work on me. Besides, my post had nothing to do with how to care for others, just a commentary about which people he cares for.

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is so freaking easy to succeed in a free market. The only people that are going to get the shaft are going to be the losers that frankly most of us do not want in society anyway. That is who socialism helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really love reading your posts and enjoy you as a poster, but reading this frightens me. Your willingness to cast aside another human is scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't use force to restrain you from helping those people with your own money. So what's the problem? Oh, right...

* I want XYZ

* I want someone else to pay for XYZ

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, I'm an anarchist. That game doesn't work on me. Besides, my post had nothing to do with how to care for others, just a commentary about which people he cares for.

[/ QUOTE ]

That game does work. By saying that he's "casting aside" those people, you're suggesting that he should be contributing to their material needs.

Everyone has different preferences. You probably care about different people than I do. Is that scary?

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what is the crisis in US health care. I live in the US and purchase my own health care independantly for a very reasonable price....what am I missing? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
You're missing that 1. You don't have any kids to pay for, 2. I don't know what your definition of reasonable is, 3. I'm guessing you make more money than the majority of Americans and 4. You're not sick. Good luck getting a reasonable price with a pre-existing condition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good grief. Trying to find insurance with a pre-existing condition is like asking for fire insurance after your house burns down.

Why didn't you buy the insurance when you were healthy? I'm pretty sure anyone who complains about how hard it is to get coverage AFTER they come down with cancer doesn't really understand what *insurance* means. Yes, it's hard to find someone willing to take on the burden of your expensive medical bills. That's why you buy insurance.

Not to mention that even then all you have to do is FIND A JOB and you'll be covered (which is part of the problem btw).

natedogg

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

Don't employers have open enrollment for one month out of the year, when you can get insurance or change policies at your job without any background check or anything? Is that just in my state or something?

Re: Can someone explain the health care \'crisis\' to me?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't employers have open enrollment for one month out of the year, when you can get insurance or change policies at your job without any background check or anything? Is that just in my state or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if that is a state or federal law or just courtesy by the employer, but open enrollment once a year is very common. You usually can change not just health insurance coverage, but also disability and life insurance coverage, your 401(k) plan, and other benefit plans offered.

And obviously you can change benefit plans on marriage (or divorce) having children, etc.

-Zeno