Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Wilt, Russel, Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem are the top 5 as far as I am considered but in what order?

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Its so tough to compare such different eras. I could honestly see an argument for any one of those players at #1:

Wilt: Most dominating statistically

Russell: Biggest winner

Shaq: Most dominating physically

Duncan: Although Russell was the biggest winner, if you look at everyone's surrounding cast then compare wins, Duncan would be #1

Kareem: longevity, overall excellence

Hakeem, KG, and Sabonis are the next tier in my opinion.


Great topic, but for once I really have no definitive opinion. I do predict, though, that most people will list Duncan at #5 which will cause me to come in here and defend him.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Don't forget George Mikan.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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I do predict, though, that most people will list Duncan at #5 which will cause me to come in here and defend him.

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#5 would be overrating him. Especially considering the 5 other guys you listed are all clearly better.

edit: whoops assumed you listed Hakeem on his own.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

btw, for the purposes of this, what are we considering a "big man"? Anyone over a certain height? Anyone to ever play C or PF? What the qualifications are could have a decent effect on the rankings.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Another note, those who don't rank David Robinson ahead of Duncan apparently werent watching basketball before 1995 when David Robinson put up sick peak numbers that Duncan's peak can't match and against better competition at the C position than Duncan has ever faced. Their is a 7 year period of time where Robinson averages 26/12, while being one of the best defensive Cs in the game. Notice that Duncan and Robinson's career averages look pretty close to each other and thats with Robinson playing til he was 37, and having a crappy last two seasons.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Another note, those who don't rank David Robinson ahead of Duncan apparently werent watching basketball before 1995 when David Robinson put up sick peak numbers that Duncan's peak can't match and against better competition at the C position than Duncan has ever faced. Their is a 7 year period of time where Robinson averages 26/12, while being one of the best defensive Cs in the game. Notice that Duncan and Robinson's career averages look pretty close to each other and thats with Robinson playing til he was 37, and having a crappy last two seasons.

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I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, but this is a situation where I think it is inappropriate to rely exclusively on statistics. Stats are very influenced by one's teammates and team system, as well as one's opponents. For example, many great players arguably would have scored a lot more had they been on less balanced teams.

Stats also don't do a good job of showing defensive prowess. Russell is routinely called the best defensive big man ever, and I doubt that is reflected in blocks per game or any other stat.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

1 Wilt
2 Shaq
3 Kareem
4 Hakeem
5 Russel

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Duncan is extremely underrated. We all love flash. So of course someone who plays boring and unimaginative basketball isn't going to be rated fairly. MEbenhoe, your career averages for both players ignore the fact that Robinson played in an era where 20 more points were scored per game.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Russell is extremely overrated, not even close to Wilt.
Boston would guard Wilt with their whole team, Russell's offense and defense wasn't as good as Wilt's.

And David Robinson lol. His impact wasn't close to Duncan's.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Russell is extremely overrated, not even close to Wilt.
Boston would guard Wilt with their whole team, Russell's offense and defense wasn't as good as Wilt's.

And David Robinson lol. His impact wasn't close to Duncan's.

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Are you old enough to have seen Russell/Chamberlain play against each other? People I know who saw those matchups unanimously tell me Russell was a far superior defensive player.

And this could be true even if they double or triple-teamed Chamberlain, who was twice the size of anyone else at the time.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Russell was an excellent defensive player, and a smart player. Wilt was also tremendous defensively and was working six times as hard on the offensive end. Russell was surrounded by HOFers. While it's not clear-cut, the weight of the evidence, for me, indicates Russell was overrated as a player. By overrated, I mean that there are a fair number of analysts who consider him a better player than Chamberlain and that's, IMO, silly. I would rank Wilt #1, Kareem #2, Shaq #3.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

I think part of the issue about Chamberlain is that he truly towered over the rest of the league, for many years. So many people tend to give him less credit for his accomplishments and assume he was less "skilled." I don't know whether that's fair.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Basically it breaks down to

Guys I would def rate above Duncan:

Wilt
Shaq
Kareem
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
Karl Malone
Garnett

The Next Group:

Duncan
Moses Malone
Ewing
Mikan

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Basically it breaks down to

Guys I would def rate above Duncan:

Wilt
Shaq
Kareem
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
Karl Malone
Garnett

The Next Group:

Duncan
Moses Malone
Ewing
Mikan

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Come on man, you really think if Duncan is on the T-Wolves all these years they're only getting past the first round once?

I would say
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Kareem
Hakeem

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Come on man, you really think if Duncan is on the T-Wolves all these years they're only getting past the first round once?

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Yes, actually.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

LOL at Garnett and Malone being better than Duncan. Malone was very much like Wilt in that he routinely put up sick numbers against weaker teams, but couldn't be found in the clutch. All you need to know about Malone is on the biggest possession of his entire career (with a chance to win a championship) he got stripped of the ball by a shooting guard (OK it was MJ, but still). I say all that to say numbers can be very deceptive, Malone played in a system that allows the 4 to put up big numbers (look at Boozer now), but Malone couldn't carry Duncan's jock when it comes to basketball IQ, and his failure to foul Scotty Pippen on an obv breakaway to save a title shot proved that convincingly. His response was that he didn't want to foul out, I guess it's better to lose on the court than your team have a chance to win with you out. He's the biggest choker in league history. Great stats though.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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I think part of the issue about Chamberlain is that he truly towered over the rest of the league, for many years. So many people tend to give him less credit for his accomplishments and assume he was less "skilled." I don't know whether that's fair.

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I never did understand this line of thought. Why do people penalize tall people because they have the advantage of being born with height but don't penalize quick people for being born quick or strong people for being born strong? I mean, I guess I can understand that you can improve the last 2 things naturally and height is completely random, but genetics still play a big part in it.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Basically it breaks down to

Guys I would def rate above Duncan:

Wilt
Shaq
Kareem
Hakeem
Russell
Robinson
Karl Malone
Garnett

The Next Group:

Duncan
Moses Malone
Ewing
Mikan

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Just furthering the case for him being underrated.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Because he's really not THAT amazing. Championships don't make you great. Sorry.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

How would you explain Duncan's teams getting further in the playoffs than KG's? Has Duncan's supporting cast really been that great? I mean, I look at their current team and Parker is a good, but not great, player, as is Mano. Heck, Duncan led a team to a championship with Avery Johnson at point guard. Is Pop a genius?

I realize championships are not the mark of a great player. I think Russell is overrated. And Yogi Berra is not the greatest baseball player ever. But look at the overall won/lost record of Duncan's teams and the talent on the rosters.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Duncan is one of my least favorite players in the history of the NBA but he's obviously a much bigger difference maker then KG and Karl Malone.
He's one of the best anchors on D in the NBA, Malone and KG aren't capable of that. David Robinson does not deserve to be ranked that highly.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Because he's really not THAT amazing. Championships don't make you great. Sorry.

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In other sports, winning isn't as important when evaluating great players. In basketball, with only 5 guys on the court, one player can indeed win with minimal help(of course he needs some though). I think that we can definitely look at how much a player wins and how good his teamates are in basketball and evaluate him based upon that.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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How would you explain Duncan's teams getting further in the playoffs than KG's? Has Duncan's supporting cast really been that great? I mean, I look at their current team and Parker is a good, but not great, player, as is Mano. Heck, Duncan led a team to a championship with Avery Johnson at point guard. Is Pop a genius?

I realize championships are not the mark of a great player. I think Russell is overrated. And Yogi Berra is not the greatest baseball player ever. But look at the overall won/lost record of Duncan's teams and the talent on the rosters.

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The problem is you're underrating his supporting cast and coach.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Has Duncan's supporting cast really been that great?

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yes, and world's better than anything KG has played with, not to mention the Spurs have always had a better coach than the TWolves.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Vyse if you had to rank all current NBA players where would you put Ginboli, Bowen, Parker, Elson, and anyone else you want to rank on their team?

Then go ahead and do the same for these other great big men's championship teams.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

you also have to consider how lucky San Antonio has been to win 3 championships. They are the Patriots of the NBA.

They've had a lot of decimating calls go their way. They could easily be a zero championship team.
But still Duncan is easily in the top ten.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Vyse if you had to rank all current NBA players where would you put Ginboli, Bowen, Parker, Elson, and anyone else you want to rank on their team?

Then go ahead and do the same for these other great big men's championship teams.

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You're not worth the effort to argue against because you think championships make a great player.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Just to give some examples

PG Nash/Parker = advantage Suns
SG Bell/Ginboli = advantage Spurs
SF Marion/Bowen = advantage Suns
C Amare/Elson = advantage Suns
6th man Barbosa/Barry = advantage Suns

Result: Spurs win series 4-2



PG Billups/Parker = advantage Pistons
SG Hamilton/Ginobli = push
SF Prince/Bowen = advantage Pistons
C Mohammed/ Wallace = advantage Pistons
6th man Horry/McDyess = push

Result: Spurs win series 4-3

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Vyse if you had to rank all current NBA players where would you put Ginboli, Bowen, Parker, Elson, and anyone else you want to rank on their team?

Then go ahead and do the same for these other great big men's championship teams.

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You're not worth the effort to argue against because you think championships make a great player.

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I think winning makes a great player. Do you disagree that winning is what its all about?

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Just to give some examples

PG Nash/Parker = advantage Suns
SG Bell/Ginboli = advantage Spurs
SF Marion/Bowen = advantage Suns
C Amare/Elson = advantage Suns
6th man Barbosa/Barry = advantage Suns

Result: Spurs win series 4-2



PG Billups/Parker = advantage Pistons
SG Hamilton/Ginobli = push
SF Prince/Bowen = advantage Pistons
C Mohammed/ Wallace = advantage Pistons
6th man Horry/McDyess = push

Result: Spurs win series 4-3

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You can't be serious with this Elson [censored], the guy gets 12 minutes per game. He is a scrub bench player. If you wanna talk about what the Spurs actually have you talk about Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, Finley, Horry, Barry, and Oberto.

Seriously your posts in this thread make it seem like you don't actually watch basketball.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

I went by the depth chart off of yahoo.com. I watch nearly every game that comes on TV if I'm home.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

I'm one of the bigger KG fanbois out there, but Duncan's better.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

After my Portland Trailblazers win four titles in the next 10 years Greg Oden will be on that list

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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Russell is extremely overrated, not even close to Wilt.
Boston would guard Wilt with their whole team, Russell's offense and defense wasn't as good as Wilt's.

And David Robinson lol. His impact wasn't close to Duncan's.

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Wilt was a decent defender, but it is hard for someone who didn't see him play to understand how good Russell was. Not only was he the best shotblocker of his (and probably any) generation, but he never blocked a shot OOB. Never in his entire career. That is huge, since he usually tipped it to a teammate or himself. That means almost every blocked shot was a turnover for the other team. It is hard to overestimate the impact this has on an offense. Also if you doubt Robinson had a greater impact than Duncan check out the difference in SA record the year before he came and his first year. In the history of the NBA only two players (Larry Bird, Tim Duncan) have changed his team's record as much (+35 games)

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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you also have to consider how lucky San Antonio has been to win 3 championships. They are the Patriots of the NBA.

They've had a lot of decimating calls go their way. They could easily be a zero championship team.
But still Duncan is easily in the top ten.

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They could easily be a 4 championship team if Fisher never hits that shot with .4 left.

It's not the championships that matter, it's the winning. Of course credit goes to the franchise, Pop, and Duncan's teammates, too, but his surrounding talent hasn't been insane or anything. They haven't won less than 57 games since '00-'01 season.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Duncan >>> KG.

Where's Zach Randolph on this list? Top 20 all-time big men with a bullet?

The difference between the truly all-time great big men and wannabes like KG, Dirk, Gasol, etc is that they play like freaking big men. Post up, score, next possession. They clog the lane and create massive problems for opposing offenses. Big men who think they are small forwards/shooting guards simply do not have the same impact.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

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but he never blocked a shot OOB. Never in his entire career. That is mythology

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Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

Chuck Barkley, the best little big man ever.

Re: Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game
 

KG is great. And I am a MN boy. But,

Duncan > KG