crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

Foxwoods 10/25 live, game is playing pretty deep except for me shortstacking w/ about 6-7k.

I played a super long session so exact bet sizes may be wrong but should be close. Chris has around 7-8k I think and JTL covers.

UTG straddles, UTG+1 (kid named Chris from NJ) repops to 250, one call, John the Lawyer (JTL) repops to 800, I stare into their souls and decide to muck 89dd from SB. Chris calls.

Flop: Q:club J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Chris leads for 1400, JTL thinks for a bit and calls.

Turn: 2 or something irrelevant
Chris bets 2600, JTL folds JJ face up.

Ofc I was a bit shocked at the fold given how his hand looks a lot more like AA/KK than JJJ. Chris looks a bit flabberbasted when JTL folds but I don't necessarily think that means he was ahead/behind neccesarily. The guy next to me seemed to think that he was the type to show any hand after JTLs was mucked except QQQ.

Any thoughts on the fold and the non-disclosure of his own hand by Chris are welcome.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

stare into their soul

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

looks pretty awful to me if all we have are the reads in the op. in fact it looks pretty terrible no matter what the reads are.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

i'd cut a big toe off before i folded second set without a flush or straight out there

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

Instead of folding JTL should be looking for a way to get ALL the money in. I don't see how this is ever a fold.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
Instead of folding JTL should be looking for a way to get ALL the money in. I don't see how this is ever a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, i talked to him a bit there and im pretty sure he lurks. maybe hell chime in

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

i wish they had one of those little smiley face icons for puking.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

worst fold in the history of poker?

are you sure he didn't have J-10?

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

Thats what amazes me about live poker. The live players will play so bad, pay off everything, then out of the blue they make a ridiculous fold for no reason.

Last time I saw someone flips over a set and fold, it caught me off guard and I burst out laughing.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

isnt jtl supposed to be an awesome player according to some of the hs players here? Im sure his fold was for a legitimate reason.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

maybe id fold AJ

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

Gotta know when your beat is prob what he said

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
isnt jtl supposed to be an awesome player according to some of the hs players here? Im sure his fold was for a legitimate reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

drugs

only thing i can think of

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
isnt jtl supposed to be an awesome player according to some of the hs players here? Im sure his fold was for a legitimate reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering the same thing. From some past posts on here I got the feeling that JTL was one of the best players/biggest winners in the NL games at FW's. To garner the kind of respect he got from several HSNL posters on here I would think that he must have had a very good reason for folding this hand, especially face up.

Edited to Add: I wouldn't fold this hand unless the guy accidentally dropped his cards and I plainly saw both Q's.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

I'm guessing either the action is wrong and there was a straight or flush possible, or JTL saw the kid's cards.

LOL about shortstacking with ~300 BBs.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
Foxwoods 10/25 live, game is playing pretty deep except for me shortstacking w/ about 6-7k.

I played a super long session so exact bet sizes may be wrong but should be close. Chris has around 7-8k I think and JTL covers.

UTG straddles, UTG+1 (kid named Chris from NJ) repops to 250, one call, John the Lawyer (JTL) repops to 800, I stare into their souls and decide to muck 89dd from SB. Chris calls.

Flop: Q:club J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Chris leads for 1400, JTL thinks for a bit and calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Chris bets 2600, JTL folds JJ face up.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd cut a big toe off before i folded second set without a flush or straight out there

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

good fold.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

wow sweet...no idea how to do that.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

there's a ton of smileys here. i copied the puking one to photobucket.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd cut a big toe off before i folded second set without a flush or straight out there

[/ QUOTE ]
Now THAT'S range-merging.

Would you accept an indian burn before folding a gutshot here?

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

On more than one occasion, I have folded middle sets on the flop when it was only possible that I was losing to top set. The first time I did it, I heard the audible gasps and whispers of “idiot” from the onlookers. When the guy tabled top set, the onlookers likely had second thoughts about their condescending judgments.

I met Samo at Foxwoods when I folded TT face up on a flop of Qh Th 7c. Incredulous, he flipped over QQ. I have made similar folds several times. The only time I have not had the person show me that I made a crazy-yet-correct fold was Saturday night, when I didn’t bother to ask Chris if I had made the right fold. I have never (except possibly on Saturday night when Chris did not show his cards) incorrectly folded middle set in instances such as these; I have never incorrectly folded KK pre-flop.

When I folded on the turn, I think I said something like, “the real superstar play was to fold this face up on the flop. But on the flop, I think this hand is just un-foldable. On the turn, however, it’s a clear fold.” Although I have taken up to ten minutes to make some calls and folds, this one took less than one minute. If you think I am a nit, please check out the article, “Trusting Your Analysis” in Bluff’s February 2007 issue before passing judgment.

I am a losing on-line player. In person, however, I do pretty well. In live play, I don’t ignore the feelings I get about someone’s hand. I don’t say (to myself), “I HAVE to call (or raise); I have middle set!” On line, I can’t wait to get the money in with middle set or other similarly great-but-possibly-second-best hands. If I were playing this hand on-line, I would have lost my stack (my recollection is that Chris had a little over $10K; I covered).

If you think my play was terrible or that I am a terrible player, please travel to Foxwoods and let me know when you will be playing. Bring lots of money. Sit deep. Purchase your return ticket in advance. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

probably helps you that the villain didnt show, now all you have to do is sit back and say 'call' for the rest of the day and take every bluffed chip on the table. and thats worth way more than personal edification.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

i was playing at the table after JTL, snipes and chris left and ppl were still discussing the hand. eventually chris came back down late night/early sunday morning and played again. some of the guys at the table were needling chris about what he had but he wouldn't reveal it..it actually got kind of tiring for those of us who didn't care that much and i'm sure for chris. eventually when one of the others at the table who repeated for maybe the 5th time that he was sure that he had KK or AQ, chris said he'd tell us one thing- he didn't have either of those hands... that doesn't really help that much, but fwiw, from the way the hand played and chris' refusal to reveal his hand i think he probably had QQ and JTL made a great fold.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you think my play was terrible or that I am a terrible player, please travel to Foxwoods and let me know when you will be playing. Bring lots of money. Sit deep. Purchase your return ticket in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

John-

I did not intend to call you out in this post. I thought you played very solid and was really just interested in hearing your thought process for the fold. I realize that there are many differences between live and online- and I am trying to sort some of those things out so that I can become a better live player (as currently I think I suck).

My line of thinking behind it being a really tough fold is the fact that you essentially 4bet preflop after the straddle and rr. So, IMO your hand appeared to be KK/AA. Thus, a QJx flop is incredibly good flop to bluff at and if you are at all deep he has to know that he can usually get you off KK/AA w/ 2 barrels. Perhaps this is one of the differences of live play, in that people just do not bluff nearly as often. But, if I were to make that call in Chris's spot w/ 99-QQ pf I would definitely only be doing it thinking that there would be some flops that I missed that I could still bluff at and get you off KK/AA.

Sorry of this post originally made you feel like I was calling you a bad player, as that is certainly not the case at all.

-John

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

Also why can we rule out 77? Does he not raise preflop with 77? Do we expect him to slow down on the turn with 77? This hand doesn't make any sense to me unless he had some sort of tell to go on.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
looks pretty awful to me if all we have are the reads in the op. in fact it looks pretty terrible no matter what the reads are.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing to shine a little light on this thread is that JTL is known for making amazing reads. Ive seen him make incredible calls w stuff like ace high in huge pots. He is definitely not an easy guy to bluff. As a matter of fact if i could find any flaw in his game (from when i used to play with him a year ago) it was his inability to fold certain hands in big pots. Looks like maybe he has corrected that.

Based on the comments made by the observers who were there for this i would be very suprised if villian didnt have QQ.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

J -

No worries . . . my response was not directed at you. You seemed to be a good player and I do not think you posted this to say that I am terrible. My response was directed to reply posts such as:

"Thats what amazes me about live poker. The live players will play so bad, pay off everything, then out of the blue they make a ridiculous fold for no reason.

Last time I saw someone flips over a set and fold, it caught me off guard and I burst out laughing."

Please come to Foxwoods! The games are easy! We are folding middle sets! When you come, have the courage to identify yourself as Equal or PoopinMyPants . . . come soon, before your bankroll has suffered the fate of your feeble poker mind.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

John,

I was at the table when this hand was played. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why Chris did not have AA, KK or bottom set--couldn't he have played these hands in the same manner?

In hindsight, I think the fact that Chris did not show tends to make me *think* (better than 50/50) he had QQ, but at the time, how can you be sure enough that he has QQ to fold middle set?

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

j,

This is why live deep NL poker is so much better than online poker.

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
j,

This is why live deep NL poker is so much better than online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

eld, read any of my live posts over the last 6 months on hsnl and you'll see that i agree and it's not close. the decisions are so much tougher, and you have so much more room for creativity and using people manipulation that it really is a different game.

dlpnyc21

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

I assume that the 2 protagonists in this one knew each other's play really well or had intimate feel for this situation....this may be a great fold ot not but who are we to criticize when we do not know what exactly was going on

FTR I too have read many posts about ONLINE dudes folding middle set, TOP SET and bottom set in the last week in otherwise innocolous looking boards....

I dont ever recall laying down a set "live" and being wrong so JTL may just have great feel

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thats what amazes me about live poker. The live players will play so bad, pay off everything, then out of the blue they make a ridiculous fold for no reason.

Last time I saw someone flips over a set and fold, it caught me off guard and I burst out laughing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting cause I could quote about 7 threads here about online dudes folding second set/s on similar boards, but I agree UNLESS the f/wit showed me the freaking QQ in his hand I would be pushing the pedal to the metal ALL IN baby.. god I hate Donkeywoods but may have to start making the drive up there.....dlp I assume you killed this game ??

[/ QUOTE ]


no, when i was in grad school, building my poker bankroll i used to take the bus to foxwoods on weekends and play 20/40 LIMIT, lol. i also played the donkalites (my first nl experience) and actually managed to qualify for the 2004 foxwoods ME without having the faintest clue about nl (i was going purely on reading ppl, nothing else--i would have sick sick live tells on people, i've gotten lazy since i started playing online more). as i got better/had a bigger bankroll i started playing in the foxwoods big NL games, but stopped going after i moved my main play to online and the games in nyc got so good. jtl is sick good live from the times i played against him (i'm sure he doesn't remember me, this was in the summer of 2005, and i was a slight winnner according to my records). i think now that i've improved so much i'd be a favorite in the game, but that's just a guess.

dlpnyc21

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

thats interesting, if you can read that its pretty much set over set, then if youre the guy with the flush draw, getting allin isnt bad at all

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

I'm going to tell you guys something that I've been keeping a secret.

If you never fold a set without at least three to a flush or three to a set (that is, if you never fold a set where you suspect someone has a higher set), in your entire fvcking life, you will die a happier man than if the converse were true (and you did fold a set at one time).

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

-EV fold obviously, i just bully him around the rest of the night after this since he shows he isnt willing to go all the way with the 2nd nuts

Re: crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw
 

good luck with that against jtl.