Trying to vary my play...
 

Based on the feed back I received when I first joined this forum, I have been trying to vary my play and become less of an ABC player. Below is one attempt:

Typical tough online game: fairly tight with some aggressive players.
SB is 36/20/2.7 after 435 hands
BB is 35/14/1.4 after 270 hands

Full Tilt 8/16 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

i hate your open limp.

i would 3bet (or fold, i guess) the flop. your line is just going to get you pwned by better hands and fold out the ones that are way behind you.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Agree with Tyler.


For what it's worth 35/15 isn't really tight.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

You wouldn't open limp AJo even at UTG+1? It's not like he open limped from MP.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

From my read of SSHE by Miller an open limp from UTG+1 is the recommended play. Before joining this forum, I would always raise with top pair top kicker in this situation (ABC play) but I thought I'd go for the raise on the turn since the board wasn't too coordinated and I had position over the blinds. Where is my thinking wrong on this. BTW, the BB had 69o and took down the pot.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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From my read of SSHE by Miller an open limp from UTG+1 is the recommended play.

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SSHE's preflop recommendations are from a different era in poker; they assume a table full of loose/passive types that love to make mistakes and pay you off whenever you have a hand. That is very rarely going to be the case in these 8/16 games.

As a bizarre change of pace play, I've seen worse things than openlimping AJo from EP. But I really don't like it, and I also agree with Tyler's other comment (your line only serves to lose you the most when you're behind while allowing your opponents to easily get out of the hand when you're not).

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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From my read of SSHE by Miller an open limp from UTG+1 is the recommended play.

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I'm on vacation, so I don't have SSHE in front of me, but...

I think that the advice for limping AJo in early position is for games which are not particularly tough, which are not tight, and which are not aggressive.

Varying your play for the sake of varying your play is silly. Are you limping just because you are trying something new, or can you explain why you think that an open limp is a good play? I'm not saying that it is a bad play (I sometimes limp there), I am just challenging you to see if you can explain why it is a good play and under what conditions you should vary your play.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

"Vary your play by not by playing the same hands differently, but by playing different hands the same." Jesus of Ferguson

CJ--sitting with popcorn waiting to see if OP picks up Pokr's challenge

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

I should have been more clear as to where I was varying my play. I can see how limping with AJo in an online 8/16 game is a mistake but that wasn't what I was thinking about in varying my play. Normally I would have 3-bet the flop with top pair top kicker. I wanted to try waiting until the turn when the bet size doubles. Mistake or correct play?

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Hmmm.... I'd be more inclined to limp (or fold) AJo in a tough online game than I would in a fishfest.

Fishfest I raise, tagfest I'd limp and occasionally fold.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

BTW, when CJ refers to OP, he couldn't mean Opie from Maybury, could he?

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

problem with the limp is if you are raised behind you, often times you don't know where you stand. is it an aggro player attacking your open-limp or is it a legit hand raising the stakes to play? generally speaking it takes more of a hand to 3bet an UTG preflop raiser than it takes to raise an UTG open limp. so you have a couple advantages to raising preflop, not to mention AJo plays horribly multiway as opposed to 2 or 3 handed(which is the best thing you raise can accomplish, IMO).

postflop, your hand is sort of concealed. 3bet the flop.

save mixing your play for: a)heads up situations and b)people that will notice. varying just to vary isn't enough reason in itself to deviate from what will show the most immediate profit. you want to vary your play to take advantage of it later or because you played in a similar situation earlier and you are against an observant opponent. are these things true in this hand?

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Thanks for all the imput guys. Playing more profitably should be my focus instead of varying my play. There are plenty of holes in my game that I can concentrate on.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Raise preflop, raise flop. If you want to vary your play, you should raise more hands, not less.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

there is nothing wrong with being an ABC player when you are playing low limit holdem, especially when you are still winning big pots and taking money from people who will play any two cards. This is low limit holdem. There is no reason to get all fancy and tricky.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Vary your play by not by playing the same hands differently, but by playing different hands the same." Jesus of Ferguson

CJ--sitting with popcorn waiting to see if OP picks up Pokr's challenge

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I like this quote a lot. Unfortunately the quote is like putting rocket fuel in a Yugo, the concept is 100% correct but when misapplied the results will be worthless. The OP has misapplied the concept unfortunately.... and the results are not good. At this stage he should be focused on straight ABC play, maximizing his return through value betting. When ABC play becomes second nature, then its time to start adjusting further.

PS: I really love that quote... its so dangerous in the wrong hands!

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

I do, too. It was one of those enlightening moments when I said, Ah HA!

It really kicks into high gear in NL. Occasionally limping AA UTG in NL rocks. Limping AA in limit is a death wish. Just one of the many differences between the two games.

Playing AJo in EP, whether limping or raising is -EV for most people most times, imho. Lost in space. ABC poker would deem it a fold, I think.

Playing ABC poker in low limit hold'em will win money, true, but who wants to play low limit hold'em forever? The point is to learn how to play the game well at the least cost possible. If you are winning with ABC, then exploring DEF isn't a bad thing. It's a very good thing.

OP is to be commended for trying, and for posting. It's the right thing to do.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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It really kicks into high gear in NL. Occasionally limping AA UTG in NL rocks. Limping AA in limit is a death wish. Just one of the many differences between the two games.

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I'm a new player, so don't mind the stupid question. I've played more NL than limit, and have been doing a lot of studying both books and forums.

Why is limping AA in limit a death wish?

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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Why is limping AA in limit a death wish?

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I wouldn't say it's a "death wish" but it is usually missing value for no reason. The payoff isn't nearly as much as in NL because it's not like you can limp for $1, see someone raise to $5 and then reraise him for much more, instead it's you limp for $1, someone raises to $2 and you raise him to a whopping $3. It's not universally horrible but you generally need nonstandard table conditions to do it.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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I should have been more clear as to where I was varying my play. I can see how limping with AJo in an online 8/16 game is a mistake but that wasn't what I was thinking about in varying my play. Normally I would have 3-bet the flop with top pair top kicker. I wanted to try waiting until the turn when the bet size doubles. Mistake or correct play?

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I think that it is reasonable strategy. However, I think that you made a mistake in three-betting the turn. The bet and raise ahead of you is often someone saying he can beat top pair, although you still may need to at least call there. You committed yourself to the strategy of raising on the turn once you flopped TPTK and didn't re-evaluate based on the turn action.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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I do, too. It was one of those enlightening moments when I said, Ah HA!

It really kicks into high gear in NL. Occasionally limping AA UTG in NL rocks. Limping AA in limit is a death wish. Just one of the many differences between the two games.


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It's not really a death wish, but it's probably only a good idea at tables where your opponents are sufficiently perceptive that you need to make deceptive plays, such as when your EP raises are getting too much respect.

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Playing AJo in EP, whether limping or raising is -EV for most people most times, imho. Lost in space. ABC poker would deem it a fold, I think.


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It's not a fold for ABC poker. SSHE has it as a limp in EP at a tight table and a raise vs. a loose table. HPFAP seems to have it as playable from EP unless the table is tough or aggressive. It's way more playable in LHE than NLHE from EP and is probably a fold according to ABC poker for no limit, but not for limit.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Ok.

A. Limping AA utg as a death wish may be an exaggeration, but it's certainly a bad play in LLHE. Get those bets in there when they are calling small bets. They usually aren't around when you want them to put in big bets.

B. AJ in EP--

I believe few players are good enough post-flop to know where they're. If you raise and are called in LP, does he have AK or AQ? If an A comes, you bet and villain calls?

For all the times you might win a small pot--single pair hands win few big pots--you will lose a lot of pots, thereby offsetting your wins. Plus or minus? Close enough, even if you play well.

I'm guessing that AJ is only slightly better long-term than my nemesis, KJ, a hand that appears far better than it ever seems to be.

TT can play AJ to a profit. I can't, I think. It's a difference in post-flop skill. He will lose less than I will. He'll make more than I will. His profit potential is higher. (But I'm working at it.)

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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I believe few players are good enough post-flop to know where they're. If you raise and are called in LP, does he have AK or AQ? If an A comes, you bet and villain calls?

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So...you pfr, get called, then get called on a A73 raimbow board and are worried about this scenario? You might be a nit if...

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I'm guessing that AJ is only slightly better long-term than my nemesis, KJ, a hand that appears far better than it ever seems to be.

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AJo is about on par with KQo which is almost always playable UTG.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok.

A. Limping AA utg as a death wish may be an exaggeration, but it's certainly a bad play in LLHE. Get those bets in there when they are calling small bets. They usually aren't around when you want them to put in big bets.


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It is not "certainly a bad play" at LLHE, although it often is. For example, I've been known to do it at LLHE when I thought there was a good chance that I could get a limp-reraise in against unobservant, and I think it can make sense in that context. What matters is how your opponents play, not the stakes you are playing.

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B. AJ in EP--

I believe few players are good enough post-flop to know where they're. If you raise and are called in LP, does he have AK or AQ? If an A comes, you bet and villain calls?

For all the times you might win a small pot--single pair hands win few big pots--you will lose a lot of pots, thereby offsetting your wins. Plus or minus? Close enough, even if you play well.

I'm guessing that AJ is only slightly better long-term than my nemesis, KJ, a hand that appears far better than it ever seems to be.

TT can play AJ to a profit. I can't, I think. It's a difference in post-flop skill. He will lose less than I will. He'll make more than I will. His profit potential is higher. (But I'm working at it.)

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If you always bet out when an ace flops and can never fold top pair when you get drawn out or are slightly outkicked, then I wouldn't be surprised if it is an unprofitable hand for you. Are you one those people who whines that AK is a drawing hand, so you shouldn't raise it from EP?

You limp with AJo at a tighter table partly because you want to try and lure people into playing weaker aces behind you. How many players do you know who fold ATo or A9o on the button if you limp UTG+2 and get a MP caller? You raise at a loose table because they are calling anyways with their ace-rag and J8 hands.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

You raise in limit because (1) you have the best hand and everyone else is trailing and (2) you scare off some (not all) of the trashy hands out there so you don't feel like impaling yourself when they hit a miracle flop. Some people will play 73s for one bet but not two.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

I think you're exactly right. Just for the hell of it the other day at a very tight 3/6 table I raised UTG w/ J9s. Everyone folded around, the BB called, I bet out at a flop of 8JT and he folded. I made sure I showed my hand to the table. I'm usually kinda rocky but I love doing stuff like this early so I can play my game and have people call me from the get-go.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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I think you're exactly right. Just for the hell of it the other day at a very tight 3/6 table I raised UTG w/ J9s. Everyone folded around, the BB called, I bet out at a flop of 8JT and he folded. I made sure I showed my hand to the table. I'm usually kinda rocky but I love doing stuff like this early so I can play my game and have people call me from the get-go.

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I'm not sure that does as much as you think it does, or it generally wouldn't in my case, from past experience. They don't think it's completely horrible to raise with J9s UTG because you have suited connectors and it's not a bad hand. You showed that you bet when you actually hit the flop pretty hard. Would you show them if you had missed the flop completely or if you had 65s with no flush draw on that board and c-bet the flop with no callers?

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Absolutely I would. Naturally I was disappointed to have hit the flop so hard with only 1 player in the hand, and would have checked if there were 3-4 players. And, at this table, it did raise eyebrows. It would have to be a lousier hand at most others, I admit.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Plus, I like to make a raise UTG with a sub-par holding very early in the session to (1)see what people at the table will call 2 cold PF with and (2) leave a mistaken impression that I am loose.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Games I play--low limit HE in Vegas to 4/8--rarely are LAG games. The likelihood of being raised is far less than someone NOT raising AK or AQ in later positions. I have no problem raising in any position and I have no problem calling down hands where I think I may be ahead, but might also be behind. If I believe they are playing hands with thin value, I'm there. I have beaten A6 more often than lost to AK with AJ, but have lost to an AK limping in the CO. Yesterday, I wasn't in the hand, but saw JJ in middle position beat AK utg and AQ utg+1. The guy with the JJ raised after 2 limpers. It does happen.

What I'm saying is limping AA utg is more likely FPS than it is good playing. FPS is a huge leak for advancing players. I see it all the time. Many on this board are good players who know what they're doing. Many who think they are good players are really suffering from FPS. There's a very fine line between betting for value and chip spewage. I don't always find that line and stay on the right side of it. I think there are others in the same shape.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

Trying to vary your play a little can be a good thing, but you have to have a reason. This seems like random variation, and therefore not a good reason. If I were you, I'd try to play perfect optimal poker. Then wait for an inspiration to hit you. I'm not saying don't look for them, I'm just saying wait until the reason is very clear to you. Such as "Oh! In this situation I'm pretty sure this guy puts me on this hand, and I can win 1.5 more BB by letting him think that by doing this on the flop because of the passive third player who's trapped and the draw my other opponent is likely to have..." You get the point.

Just calling the flop, then reraising the turn when the serious money starts going in, is just backward with no payback for your "variation".

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

I've had such a strong table image at times that I was getting too much respect for my UTG raises, even at what was normally a no-fold em table if I didn't enter the pot in EP. So I've limped UTG with AA a few of times, which HPFAP suggests is a possible play. The last time, I had two red aces and found myself facing an all-spade flop. Guy in the blinds bet flop and turn with top pair and the guy to my left (it was three-handed after the flop) bluffed the river with a missed nut flush draw, but I made the overcall on the end to take the pot.

I also opened with a limp in EP once when I had a strong tell that a certain player behind me was going to raise (but he was the sort who would respect my raises and probably not 3-bet me with JJ or AK), so I went for the limp-reraise.

But the spots where I would consider limping in EP with AA are pretty rare.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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Normally I would have 3-bet the flop with top pair top kicker. I wanted to try waiting until the turn when the bet size doubles. Mistake or correct play?


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If the pot were bigger, I might see it. Why make a strong move on the turn in a sm-med sized pot?

The pot is small and they want to jam it on the flop. Jam it with them.

b

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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Plus, I like to make a raise UTG with a sub-par holding very early in the session to (1)see what people at the table will call 2 cold PF with and (2) leave a mistaken impression that I am loose.

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It sounds cool, but you're overestimating it's impact.

1] You can do that by watching when others raise

2] That impression doesn't stay long if past an orbit or 2. Anyone observant enough to notice will also notice your frequency of this play.

b

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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Based on the feed back I received when I first joined this forum, I have been trying to vary my play and become less of an ABC player.

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Why are you trying to vary your play? Are you not getting any action? I haven't seen your reason for this anywhere in this thread.

b

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

If it were a NL game i may have limped. If you raise and someone else throws in another raise you may have to fold. Beings it was limit i would always raise and bet down as long as you felt u were ahead. And how much action do you really want with AJ anyways?

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

out of curiosity I took a look at the raising standrards in Hold'em poker for Advanced players.

They don't directly mention AJo as a raising hand, though do sugest in a tough game you might want to fold it up front. (too hard to play if you get isolated by a raiser).

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

weighing the odds in holdem poker sugest just limping in from early position with ajo...

And we all know that if someone puts advise in a book it must be true.

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

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weighing the odds in holdem poker sugest just limping in from early position with ajo...

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I just read through this whole thread for the first time. Ugh. Did anyone mention that this is 8-handed? At a 10-handed table, AJo (and KQo) are marginal hands from EP. 8-handed, I think this is a pretty easy raise at most tables.

As for the play, I agree with the poster who said, in so many words, "Waiting for the turn to raise isn't a bad idea. Not taking into account that there was already a bet and raise in front of you on the turn was."

Re: Trying to vary my play...
 

1) Well, there's a difference b/w calling a raise when you already have $3 out there and calling $6 cold. It's a good way to find out the relative tightness of the table.. and whose PF range is widest.
2) I usually back it up by doing it a second time as soon as I am dealt another hand like 64s, K9s etc.. You're right that once is not enough. But twice in 5 or 6 orbits probably is.