Something in the way
 

Wynn 30 tonight, 7ish handed.

Odd guy from Clark's post opens, guy from LA who probably plays too loose and makes a lot of the standard marginal player mistakes coldcalls, I call in the SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB folds.

Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
check, PFR bets, villain raises, I coldcall, PFR folds.

FWIW I had a feeling villain liked his hand at this point

Turn 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check and call.

River J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check and fold.

Re: Something in the way
 

"nh"

-DeathDonkey

Re: Something in the way
 

am i too much of a nit to fold the flop to a raise out of position?

what if i have j9o instead with no heart?

Re: Something in the way
 

folding here is terrible. You're getting something like 5:1 on your immediate odds just to see the turn card, and that's assuming the PFR folds which he seldom does.

Re: Something in the way
 

I fold preflop. As played, I think it's fine - sometimes you have to produce the best hand to win the pot and this seems like one of those situations.

Jeff

Re: Something in the way
 

2 chip/ 3 chip SB Jeff, I think preflop is closeish but you have to call in that structure.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Something in the way
 

It's tempting to call the river getting 7-1 when he could have had something like AT or KT or KJ or T9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], but it sounds like you have a read and people don't valuebluff as often in position. So, I think your decision on the river is probably correct. Preflop/flop/turn seem pretty standard, although if I had say a backdoor flush draw to go with my other outs, I might go ahead and 3-bet the flop.

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wynn 30 tonight, 7ish handed.

Odd guy from Clark's post opens, guy from LA who probably plays too loose and makes a lot of the standard marginal player mistakes coldcalls, I call in the SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB folds.

Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
check, PFR bets, villain raises, I coldcall, PFR folds...


[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of funny that you'd call here getting only 4 - 1/2 to 1, hit your hand, and then fold. You'd have saved some money by folding in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]

River J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]


(pot odds 7.5:1 )

River J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So--do you always fold second pair getting 7 1/2 to 1, or was there something special about this situation that made you sure with 88% certainty that the other guy wouldn't bet with less than a pair of queens? Because you haven't told us anything about him that leads to that conclusion.

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


(pot odds 7.5:1 )

River J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So--do you always fold second pair getting 7 1/2 to 1, or was there something special about this situation that made you sure with 88% certainty that the other guy wouldn't bet with less than a pair of queens? Because you haven't told us anything about him that leads to that conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. It was a 30/60 game at the Wynn and the guy raised and bet at every opportunity. A rivered king would be a fold here too. You may not know the game but routinely missing your draw, catching a pair instead and paying it off is why I bet the river against the fish knowing they were on a draw. They can't help themselves.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Something in the way
 

i dont think pf is that close. it's a pretty routine fold and although the weirdness of the opponents makes it tempting it's gonna be a money loser. and i dont like losing money.

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]


You are wrong. It was a 30/60 game at the Wynn and the guy raised and bet at every opportunity. A rivered king would be a fold here too. You may not know the game but routinely missing your draw, catching a pair instead and paying it off is why I bet the river against the fish knowing they were on a draw. They can't help themselves.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is a fold when the J comes off on the river, however I think vilian has AQ often enough for this to be a call when the river is a K. I realize of course that many mediocre players will check behind a lot when the river comes the K, but I see a decent number who do bet it as well (in norcal, I only played the wynn 30 game a couple times a year). Without a more specific read I think I pay off a river king.




Board: Qh Ts 4h 2c Kc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.667% 66.67% 00.00% 24 0.00 { QQ, TT, 44, AQs, KQs, QTs, AQo, KQo, QTo }
Hand 1: 33.333% 33.33% 00.00% 12 0.00 { KdJc }


Ok it looks like with this range the villian would need to bet AQ at least 1/4 of the time to break even with a river call.

Re: Something in the way
 

I'm fold with the river fold. What do we beat ? 99 I guess ?

Re: Something in the way
 

What do we beat? People check that river with all sorts of queens. Are you (bad lobster) betting AT for value there? Now imagine you're not a good player and you probably miss value a lot and AK just got there!

Re: Something in the way
 

I fold this hand almost everytime at Foxwoods 20-40, but I guess this could be correct preflop elsewhere.

Re: Something in the way
 

You fold a rivered king?! Are you for real? You're going to get bluffed out by a lot of value bets, don't you think?

Re: Something in the way
 

Eric,

When that king hits a river, these people don't value bet their AQ, they just don't. If they did they would be over at the Bellagio playing 100/200 but they don't, so they perpetuate the Vegas 30/60 circlejerk .

If you call a bet on a rivered king it's hoping he was bluffing, not mistakenly value betting a Q. .

-DeathDonkey

Re: Something in the way
 

A donk on a rivered K is probably best, as most of the time it will go check check.

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]
When that king hits a river, these people don't value bet their AQ, they just don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fascinating. Sounds like a great game. Good luck to you, not that you need it!

-eric

Re: Something in the way
 

great posts and spot on.

i think there's a little more value to betting a rivered K then check-folding it but it's close. KJo is in even more trouble than normal of being dominated in vegas games though so another reason to not play it in that spot.

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]
When that king hits a river, these people don't value bet their AQ, they just don't. If they did they would be over at the Bellagio playing 100/200 but they don't, so they perpetuate the Vegas 30/60 circlejerk .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting in light of the fact that clark, goofball, justin, and dougie are all perpetuating.

Re: Something in the way
 

Trying to get me in trouble? I don't think any of those guys would think I was talking about them and Justin for sure has posted on here basically the same thing describing the Bellagio 30/60 regulars (and he is killing them all).

-DeathDonkey

Re: Something in the way
 

rivered k chops with kj and beats k9 and kxh. folding would be horrible.

as is, with rivered j, you still beat an assortment of missed flush draws.

Re: Something in the way
 

[ QUOTE ]
A donk on a rivered K is probably best, as most of the time it will go check check.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I was going to post. I don't know how Vegas games play but is there any value at all in donking a J hoping to collect calls from 88/99/TX or do the pocket pair parts of his range check the turn? I don't know what it's like to play with tables filled with nits so I'm not very familiar with situations where hands as powerful as 1 pair need to be folded.