50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

3bet preflop is obv an option, how do you guys play this?

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $65.30
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $50.00</font>
UTG: $19.75
CO: $128.53
BTN: $76.00

<font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">Just joined table, this is my first hand. Villain is 28/10/3 over 150 datamined. 100% Cbet</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.50</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $1.00

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($3.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $2.00</font>, Hero calls $2.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($7.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $4.50</font>, Hero calls $4.50

<font color="black">River:</font> ($16.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $12.00</font>, Hero calls $12.00

Pot Size: $40.25 ($2 Rake)

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I fold to the second barrel. Most villains will c-bet, but most will stop after the first try, too.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

why not a raise somewhere (flop/turn) to see where you stand? My feeling here w/ the low pair and the constant bets it is like walking down a dark corridor.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

c/r flop shut down if called?

I take this line against villians like the one in this hand.

you have invested more than what you would in a flop c/r with the line you took.
Of coarse if villian had air you got more value out of him with c/c line.

I just hate c/c three streets I rarely win monies with these lines. Seems like villian would have shut down some where if you were ahead here.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Assuming you make it to the river, you lost to pocket pairs, AK, KQ (discounted), and Kxd (again, discounted.) You beat AQ and busted draws. I think I find a fold, in that you have no real knowledge that the villian will three barrell bluff here. I don't think it is a really bad call, but I think I fold. I also think you might fold on the turn because I don't think you can count on a free showdown (AF = 3) and there are a lot of scary cards on the river.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I get sucked into pots like this all the time and never know what to do. Hence, I spew a fortune.

I never 3b pf. I just can't see that it's a more EV line than calling. (Metagame notwithstanding of course).

I play it the same except usually pussy out on river. I'm pretty sure it's awful though to call 2 streets and then fold river, so I'm really not sure.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I didnt feel the need to turn my hand into a bluff on the flop.

There isnt really much in my range that I would check/raise the flop with other than diamond draws, and there arent a great deal of those in my range.

Normally I would fold to 2nd barrel here.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

What do you guys think about calling river after calling 2 streets? I had quite a big think at the time.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt feel the need to turn my hand into a bluff on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not a bluff if you actually have the best hand. Which is what you find out with a flop c/r

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Fold to second barrel as played, although I might c/r the flop

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

hoya, if I C/R the flop I am bluffing. I am representing a bigger hand than 66, despite it is likely I have the best hand.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I agree a c/r on the flop turns your hand into a bluff but the question is if bluffing the flop is better than just c/cing three steets?

I take your line alot here too with varied results. I guess sometimes I just like to raise when I think my opponent is weak may not be the best in EV always I guess but I also dont think is worse then murky c/calling OOP

Guess im just not a fan of trying to get to showdown OOP rather just win it early or muck.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Call the flop, fold the turn and DEFINETLY fold the river.

I hate this play check calling it down, I am tempted to raise turn if I am doing anything with this hand

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

After calling the turn I think calling river is almost mandatory, but I had to think a bit.

The only stuff in his range that he 3 barrels here is stuff like 33/8x/77/KK. With almost everything else he checks behind on river.

If he is still going for value with 99-QQ on this river he is an exceptional player (but probably doesnt realise why or what he's doing).

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

If you think your hand is good on the river, why not bet yourself instead of calling (I don't see how you think it is good after the turn bet)?

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

folding the river is very very very clear
I could also find very good reasons for folding the turn

Crovax

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

doesn't playing a small pp this way have RIO written all over it. Why call the river?

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

obv if he had any idea you'd call three barrles with this its pretty easy to value bet those hands. What else would you be ck calling all the way here. Nothing I assume. and certially nothing with a K in it so that doesn't change the board really.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I explained why I called river above. I think turn fold is generally standard, but after calling turn I think I have to call river for reasons stated above.

What do you guys put him on on the river? I want hand ranges other than just these statements.

Also, betting river is not nearly as good as c/c.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Yeah your right most players at this stake would se the K and think that is a good three barrle bluff card so bluffs are certially possible. He is probebly not thinking on the level to relise that it is not likely for you to hav a K and that you would have likely raised a better hand than 99-QQ by now. I guess I'm just not in love with ch calling small pairs on the flop but I'm not sure if ther is a better way to play it.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I donk bet the flop here. Then give up.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

this works well against players who don't raise donk bets like its there job. I don't know if this guy is one of those players. If he is not prone to multistreet bluffs I like a ck call flop. If he is however this is kinda a RIO situation.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
I donk bet the flop here. Then give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I much prefer c/r to donk bet on flop here and it's not even close.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I take this line occasionally. I think you picked the perfect spot for it. Button vs Blinds. It's riskier when the raise is coming from EP. The river bet is either a huge hand or air. Sometimes you will run into a K.

This is the dilemma when playing OOP. Do you C/R flop and get them to fold the times they have missed overs or do you call down never knowing where you are?

If it's an aggressive player sometimes you just have to call down and if they suck out then so be it. I think folding the turn is weak because I've noticed that when guys raise they almost always fire at least 2 barrels and sometimes 3. I rarely see guys give up on the turn.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I think your behind most of the time. If he's c-betting a lot, take him off his hand on the flop. Don't call off you stack with crap.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I donk bet the flop here. Then give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I much prefer c/r to donk bet on flop here and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? To me it just seems like you are risking a lot more to find out where you're at. Maybe I'm missing something here. If he's just got a couple overs do you think he calls here? Or raises every time and pushes you out? I just don't find that to be the case and I lead at flops OOP HU a lot, with and without hands where it looks like people have missed so maybe I just have a different style. Or maybe it's dumb tell me why.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I'm starting to think 3 bet these pre flop agaist a loose button opener might be better. Obv we don't have set value to call and it hard to play them unimproved oop.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

c/r looks stronger and you pick off c bet.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to think 3 bet these pre flop agaist a loose button opener might be better. Obv we don't have set value to call and it hard to play them unimproved oop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This type of player is rarely folding to a 3 bet. Then you are playing a big pot OOP with a pair of 6s.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obv we don't have set value to call

[/ QUOTE ]
WTH

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r looks stronger and you pick off c bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you end up raising big with a hand that leaves you OOP with a chunk of your stack in the middle if he calls now turn comes whatever now what? I still don't get how it's any better, it's just more pressure for higher risk /reward.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

muddydog I prefer c/f to donk bet.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

You should mix it up anyways. You should donkbet sometimes, c/r sometimes, &amp; c/c others. You don't want to play one hand the same way everytime. I think they are all viable options and have certain pros and cons to them.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

looked at his stats we may have set value on this guy. we don't have set value if he is pos aware and raising more on the button because he won't stack off enough.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

[ QUOTE ]
muddydog I prefer c/f to donk bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is exploitable at super aggro levels but I just don't understand how unless you know for sure the guy is going to cbet why you would want to completely cancel out this line. Even then you let him cbet then just call... giving up initiative on the hand and letting them see a card on the turn where if they have whiffed overs they have a chance to catch or bluff at any over card and you have no more idea where you are at. It's more likely statistically that he'll have overs here especially on the button so I take down the pot a lot here with this line. But I'll do it with a lot of different hands so I don't think I'm as exploitable doing this as you seem to think the line is.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Btw if the king had come on the turn I was folding to the 2nd barrel.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

whats ur username? I want you to call me down when i have that 8.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Not a grunch, but before I read the thread my line would have been:

3b PF depending on read
as played check raise or fold flop
as played check raise or fold turn (depending on his opening range PF and any read on 2bar freq)
as played fold river (i could see a call if it was a smaller bet. this could be a triple barrel bluff but not often enough for you to call).


I am increasingly leaning towards 3betting these preflop because we don't have great implied odds against a wide button opening in range. I use Att to Steal % as a guideline.

[ QUOTE ]
This type of player is rarely folding to a 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this?


A check raise on the flop doesn't 'turn my hand into a bluff': against a thinking player you are representing being able to beat a cb. (see the Chomp/Ama discussion in Chomp's Get your nits out thread)

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

I was thinking about this a diamond draw is def a large part of his range. the problem is that alot of the diamond draws that he could have have a K in them (although not nearly as many as the A.

Re: 50NL - I NEVER FOLD
 

Would he bet the river though if he hit a king?