Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

$100 MTT, 14 players left. Button is 21/12. Push, call, or fold?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (7 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t41418)
SB (t84516)
Hero (t32216)
UTG (t18116)
MP1 (t49678)
MP2 (t18208)
CO (t124620)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t6000</font>, SB calls t5000, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ???

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

I shove this with ridiculous frequency

(unless SB knows that)

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

100% player dependant

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

this spot is pretty good for squeezing light but i wouldnt automatically. if sb is a good player (im guessing hes not since the coldcall from the sb is usually pretty bad) i think hes calling us about 90% of the time since he will realize its a good spot for a squeeze and any hands he coldcalled with will have good enough equity vs our wide range. id tend to squeeze here a lot more often vs bad players.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

Isn't small blind aware of your agro tendencies and calling with AA here?

I fold this with two interested parties.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

Any reads on SB? Isn't that the most important part of this problem?

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any reads on SB? Isn't that the most important part of this problem?

[/ QUOTE ]
SB is unknown and somewhat LAG with big stack. My image is not aggro. I had limped 33 into SB'd BB and SB bet into me on flop and took pot.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

This is really read dependant. I rarely ever squeeze here though because it's so obvious and people never fold to squeezes these days. But depending on your table image and read on the button/SB I definitely pull the trigger sometimes. In particular you need some read the small blind is the type to call a raise there too often instead of reraising, otherwise I'm really worried he has a monster.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any reads on SB? Isn't that the most important part of this problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not worried about SB at all. He has a big stack and the raise wasn't too big, so I'm pretty sure a shove will get him out.

The Button is concerning and reads on him are important IMO.

How often is the button raising when it's folded around? How active on the CO? If the button has been raising from LP, how much?

If the button has been quite from LP I insta-fold.
If the button has been making a standard 3x+bb raise from LP, I insta fold.

IMO, lots of conditions have to be close to perfect to risk tournment life on a shove here.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't small blind aware of your agro tendencies and calling with AA here?

I fold this with two interested parties.

[/ QUOTE ]


looks good to shove there most of the time but if the SB is a thinker then he might be trying to induce the squeeze. Whats your thoughts on the small blinds level of play?

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, lots of conditions have to be close to perfect to risk tournment life on a shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, anyone who uses the phrase "risking your tournament life" should not be allowed to post in this forum.

As far as the rest of your post... if button has been tight from LP you instafold... but if button has been making a standard raise frequently, you instafold as well? WTF? Where is the logic behind your thought process? You seem to be okay at assessing that, yes, the particular players on button and SB matter a lot, but you don't seem to know how to use that information to reach a conclusion about how to play the hand.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

how often will SB smoothcall a monster here, knowing that stacks are great for you to make a move and hoping you do it? Seems like a pretty good move for him. Even if you dont squeeze he stands a decent chance of getting his stack in ahead against the button.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
how often will SB smoothcall a monster here, knowing that stacks are great for you to make a move and hoping you do it? Seems like a pretty good move for him. Even if you dont squeeze he stands a decent chance of getting his stack in ahead against the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pre-Squeeze ... or the Betgo

"I betgoed this lag monkey, who thought he was squeezing me, with my AA last night ... was sweet"

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
how often will SB smoothcall a monster here, knowing that stacks are great for you to make a move and hoping you do it? Seems like a pretty good move for him. Even if you dont squeeze he stands a decent chance of getting his stack in ahead against the button.

[/ QUOTE ]


DJ,

first order of business is that the SB has to be either a good, thinking player or a bad, unthinking player. if he's some oaf in the middle of the two, he's always reraising aces.

i push this a ton, but that's because Q9s is my favorite hand and cracks aces and kings something like 40% of the time for me. which is fortunate, because i play Q9s like aces and kings.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

you are too short with 40k I like.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are too short with 40k I like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh.. we've got FE. I think perfect stack is like 35k actually.

I shove this a ton. Maybe the tournament scene is changing and I haven't really noticed yet, but IMHO resteals are still awesome, and squeezes doubly so.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

I agree with shaun here. You're offering better than 3:2 which means if the button folds there are too many hands in SBs range that could still call expecting to have at least 40% equity versus our shoving range. A few more BBs makes all the difference in the world in what hands SB can still reasonably call with assuming the button folds.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

What this really comes down to is if SB is more likely to trap here, or if he's just calling because he has a lot of chips and a hand that's not worth reraising.

You should have pretty good equity when called, too. Don't forget that. It's okay to have the worst hand sometimes.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

I actually pushed. Results later. I wasn't sure whether to push, call, or fold.

Has anyone considered if calling or folding is better? You are getting almost 4-1 pot odds on the call, and this is a pretty good hand to see a flop with. I would be more inclined to push rather than call with A3s or A9s, which play better than Q9s allin, but are hard to play a flop with.

I didn't think I had that much FE. However, I didn't think I was in too bad shape if called.

SB seemed to like to "play poker" and was pretty aggressive postflop. He was an unknown, but his city is "Las Vegas", so he might be a pro. I thought he might flat call rather than push, so I didn't think he was probably trapping.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are too short with 40k I like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh.. we've got FE. I think perfect stack is like 35k actually.

I shove this a ton. Maybe the tournament scene is changing and I haven't really noticed yet, but IMHO resteals are still awesome, and squeezes doubly so.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome when they work def but with 40k its all of buttons stack he will have 1k after that so that effects him a lot and it's then half of sbs stack which effects him a lot. Little things like that bother the weaker players.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

Yeah. I should probably think about stuff like that more.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

i consider q 9 a trouble hand ill open w it in some spots but id fold most times here. its just strong enough to go for a squeeze play though. if i have been playing or viewed as tight id shove here else fold

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

ALL YOU CAN EAT BABY! No but seriously, push. If the SB had around your stack or maybe just a little larger than I would fold. But since he has so many chips, his range of calling widens up pretty considerably making this push profitable.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

I figure if I can isolate, I am getting about 1.37-1, putting in 42% of the money.

If I am against a top 15% hand if called, I am 36% for an average loss of 4500. If I steal the pot preflop, I gain 15000. So the push is profitable in cEV if I take the pot 25% of the time.

Button could be raising a high percentage of hands, so I may be a little better than 36% if called. However, there is some chance SB is trapping.

At this stage approaching the final table, gambling may be cEV-, which might be enough to make the push $EV-. Obviously, if I win, I build a big stack, so the effect on $EV may be close.

I know people don't like a flat call, but in this situation, in the BB with pot odds, that might be the best play.

In actuality, button pushed over top with AQo and it held up. It was kind of bad luck I was dominated, rather than against AK or AJ. Also, a lot of times no one has anything better than Ax, Kx, or an underpair, so if I am called, I am only slightly behind, and probably ahead of pot odds.

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

I hate to be smug or dismissive, but this is sort of ridiculous to ask.

-Button's tendencies are an obvious cornerstone of this hand. We have some PT stats, but really this is a matter of a general read (which will include postflop observation, of which OP has none) and tempo/dynamic/how-Hero-is-himself-viewed characteristics. It's all subject to flux and whim and timing and gut.

-Similar comments apply to the small blind.

-Again, apologies for any haughty tone here, but this sort of post might be a good example of what isn't HSMTT. It's like asking what to open the cutoff with. Preflop equity comes from folding equity + equity plus called; those equities themselves come from ranges + what they do with what parts of those ranges.

Preflop decisions can be very interesting, but I'm not seeing what's so notable here. So much of the skill in these high-blind MTT situations is reading the player and the effects recent events have on him, and the adjustments and meta-adjustments, etc.

--Nate

Re: Button raises, SB calls, Q9s in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, lots of conditions have to be close to perfect to risk tournment life on a shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, anyone who uses the phrase "risking your tournament life" should not be allowed to post in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think of a better phrase and I'll use it. The point is that it's a very important decision for this tournament and it only takes 1 bad read. So IMO, if you're a little unsure about a shove here then it's probably better to fold... which is what I would do here.

[ QUOTE ]

As far as the rest of your post... if button has been tight from LP you instafold... but if button has been making a standard raise frequently, you instafold as well? WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, I mis-read something. I thought that the Button raised a tad less than 2.5x, not 3. You're right, WTF? I obviously got posts confused.
[ QUOTE ]

Where is the logic behind your thought process? You seem to be okay at assessing that, yes, the particular players on button and SB matter a lot, but you don't seem to know how to use that information to reach a conclusion about how to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point was, and is, that the decision is important enough that you need enough information to shove here. (And actually, I say things like that to remind myself of this-because when I play online I often shove based on instinct and don't take the time to really think things through.)

I want to know from what position the Button has been raising 12% of his hands. If he's been raising from all over the table then I insta-fold.

If he's been raising often from LP I can put him on a wider range, say top 25% of hands, then in which case I may lean towards a shove given my tight image at the table so far.

I thought bet sizes were imporant before (becuase I thought it was a 2.5ish raise) but the button has probably been making a standard 3xbb raise every time.