Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

I've been playing 3/6 with a full kill at one of the local casinos. I'm doing okay, but kill pots are killing me. I think the biggest problem I have is that when we go to 6/12 I get weak tight. I folded an over pair for 1 bet on the turn last night when the fourth straight card hit the board only to find out my jacks would have been good. It was a huge pot. Looking back, it would have been a reasonable call; of course, hindsight is 20/20. I'm adequately bankrolled for the game, but when the stakes double I am struggling.

I've been playing and winning online for years. I'm just getting back into the swing of playing live. I'm completely new to playing kill games.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Fitz

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

Just play the same, but adjust for the dead money posted by the kill button. So, you can open up your limping range slightly in EP, basically play a bit more hands. You will likely be playing a mutliway pot, and some players will "play their heater" aggressively, so be aware of that.

Just use good judgement, its ok to call down, especially HU, but your turn fold could have easily been the correct play if you were acting on solid reads/pf & flop action.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

Fitz - crossposting in the B&M forum isnt cool, I had to delete your thread. Besides, Small Stakes is the right place to ask your question.

Your adjustments:

1) Buy in for more. an extra 10BB is good if you play in a leg up followed by a kill structure, if you play in an East Coast style kill without a leg up then I would buy in for nearly double your normal stake.

2) playing in the SB is really where you make the biggest change because the blind ratio is now totally off kilter, play this position as if you were on the button when facing a raise so you know your calling range (this is a rough explanation, not an exact rule of thumb). Also your blind structure is a factor, if the small blind is normally $2 when it plays as 3/6 then you can play almost as if your in the big blind when you are not closing the action - tighten up just a bit.

3) Post flop shouldn't make a difference. Your play is dictated by position and pot size. Only pre-flop play is adjusted, and thats mostly the blinds, stealing/isolating positions, and when to call a raise from the kill itself.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

I was in a game a couple weeks ago around Chicago with a "leg up" button. Does that just mean you need to win two pots in a row before its a kill pot? That's what I assumed, but on the west coast I haven't seen it called "leg up". In my local cardrooms, you get the kill button with "kill off" or something facing up to start, then flip it over if you win that pot and its at least $30....

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

In a slightly similar vein:
People in my B&M talk about draws they go after at 4/8 they wouldn't go for at 10/20. It makes me laugh because a bet is a bet is a bet. It doesn't matter if the big bet is $8 or $20 (in your case $6 or $12).

They play exactly the same (unless other players get looser/tighter in the kill pots). The same rules of good play apply. Don't think if it as money...don't be of losing money. If you play well, you'll win in the long run.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

Sorry about the cross post.

Thanks for advice. Adjusting the buyin makes good sense. It's a leg up structure, so I'll try that tonight.

As I thought about the particular hand I posted about, I thought of the line in HPFAP about doing all you can to win pots when they get big. Maybe the most aggravating part was that when I folded, it was heads up, and they checked down the river. 12 for a shot at 150 was a pretty bad fold on my part.

Thanks again,

Fitz

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

In this game, the leg up button comes when you win one pot, and it becomes a kill if the leg up wins the next pot regardless of the size.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry about the cross post.

Thanks for advice. Adjusting the buyin makes good sense. It's a leg up structure, so I'll try that tonight.

As I thought about the particular hand I posted about, I thought of the line in HPFAP about doing all you can to win pots when they get big. Maybe the most aggravating part was that when I folded, it was heads up, and they checked down the river. 12 for a shot at 150 was a pretty bad fold on my part.

Thanks again,

Fitz

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit reading HPFAP. This is not an advanced game, and your not an advanced player (yet). Switch to Small Stakes Hold'em, you will be happier.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

I've played a 4/8 with a full kill(plays 8/16) & a half kill(plays 6/12)and almost every kill pot most of the players get very timid. Use your good position to your full advantage just as you would do any time.

First time I played with a kill it made me quite nervous, mostly because I didn't know what a kill was and I didn't know this particlur game had one till a few orbits.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was in a game a couple weeks ago around Chicago with a "leg up" button. Does that just mean you need to win two pots in a row before its a kill pot? That's what I assumed, but on the west coast I haven't seen it called "leg up". In my local cardrooms, you get the kill button with "kill off" or something facing up to start, then flip it over if you win that pot and its at least $30....

[/ QUOTE ]

The "leg up" button signifies winning the first pot of the two consecutive pots needed to get to a "kill." That is the way it is played in the NW IN and Potawatomie poker rooms that I frequent around the Chicago-area.

In my experience, most of the time, the play tightens up considerably in these games during a "kill" pot, so there are stealing opportunities that are more profitable (and more likely to be successful) than in normal stakes. For example, in a 3/6 game, there are normally $4 in blinds that can be stolen for a raise to $6. Players are more likely to call off $3 in the BB with any two.

However, turn this into a kill with the kill blind of $6 being posted in addition to the $4. Here you are stealing $10 for a bet of $12. While you have 3 posters, rather than 2 to get through, your odds are better, especially because the players are generally more reluctant to call off the BB amount in this game. Even if called from out of the blind, any continuation bet is very likely to take down the pot following the preflop raise.

So while I would rarely if ever raise solely to steal blinds in the 3/6, I find myself looking for steal opportunities in late position in a kill pot in that game.

Of course, on rare occasion, there are players who get looser and more aggressive in kill pots. They should be fairly easy to spot. But by and large, my observations is that in these small stakes games with a kill, the players get very weak tight.

I also forgot to mention that I tighten up considerably with the leg up button. It's a real pisser to win a small second pot when you have that thing sitting in front of you.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

Nevermind the turn, it seems to me that you might have been too passive on flop in the first place. If you have an overpair to the board, did someone bet and then you just called? I would raise that up. I think it plays much differently that way, giving you an egde to at get to showdown more confidently.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

I will sometimes loosen up my pf raising hand requirements in mid-pos as the game tightens up considerably and you often have a good chance of getting HU. This is game-dependant, obviously (I had a player cold call K9s for two bets the other night... ?!?!?!?).

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nevermind the turn, it seems to me that you might have been too passive on flop in the first place. If you have an overpair to the board, did someone bet and then you just called? I would raise that up.

[/ QUOTE ]

We dont have enough information to know if calling is a superior option to raising, if the pot was huge and the board is highly coordinated, someone donks and there are 2 callers - then calling is fine.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

There's some really good advice above ... hopefully this will be as well.

You need to add another read into your "library" - those that get weak when the kill is on and those that like to gambool it up (I guess there is also a third - those that get "strong" when the kill is on). It makes a difference knowing those you can push off the pot with a 2x big bet (in their mind) and those entering with ATC or weak hands just for a chance at a kill pot. You want to be one of thise who gets strong with a kill on ... quality cards played aggressively (but then really - you're whole game should be this). Just remeber, most low limit players barely pay attention - the exception is when the kill is on.
As other's have said - it's just a bet, play your game as you would normally - but realize that there are other's at the table who see it in dollar terms - exploit where appropriate.
Take advantage of the gamboolers. They'll attack kill pots with marginal hands trying to get lucky - use the power of the increased stakes to 3-bet and isolate.
Turn up the aggression in kill pots. If your opponents are typical and only paying attention to kill pots your preflop raises have more impact.
Use the kill pots to manage your table image somewhat. Couple of weeks ago it seemed I was only getting good hands when it was the 8 seat's kill pot. He was getting visibly frustrated and began to play back at me. Good for me as I was playing premium hands and he wasn't. But after going to showdown a couple of times and seeing my big hands I used the opportunity to impress upon him (and the table) that I'm playing premium hands only - which of course set up a couple of kill pot steals by me later with garbage.
Lastly, as everyone else has said - it's just cards, bet's and pot odds for you and double stakes for everyone else. Use it to your advantage where possible.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

I wanted to say thanks again for the advice on this. I played last night, and I made the adjustments recommended. I had a nice win, and I picked up some kill pots playing premium hands strongly. I also was able to pick off a couple of smaller kill pots when I noticed who was playing weak tight in the these pots.

Great advice as always.

Thanks,

Fitz

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry about the cross post.

Thanks for advice. Adjusting the buyin makes good sense. It's a leg up structure, so I'll try that tonight.

As I thought about the particular hand I posted about, I thought of the line in HPFAP about doing all you can to win pots when they get big. Maybe the most aggravating part was that when I folded, it was heads up, and they checked down the river. 12 for a shot at 150 was a pretty bad fold on my part.

Thanks again,

Fitz

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit reading HPFAP. This is not an advanced game, and your not an advanced player (yet). Switch to Small Stakes Hold'em, you will be happier.

[/ QUOTE ] TT this is very interesting you said that about HPFAP. When do you actually read that book? I haven't read that book yet, but read every other book. I play 2/4, 3/6 online, but still think I have no need for HPFAP unless Im playing maybe 8/16 online or playing 10/20 to 20/40 Live. What do you think? I don't think I should be applying advanced skills to 6/12 or even 8/16 live b/c its just not needed there.

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

This is an interesting question. HPFAP is the first book I read a long time ago. I've used it as a reference book along the way. I crushed the 2/4 and 3/6 games online for a long time. Honestly, I read SSH, and it seemed to wreak havoc in my game. I'm sure it is because I have misapplied it, but it has left me a little gun shy. I have noticed the live 3/6 game plays a lot closer to the games described in that book than the 2/4 and 3/6 games online.

Good luck,

Fitz

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry about the cross post.

Thanks for advice. Adjusting the buyin makes good sense. It's a leg up structure, so I'll try that tonight.

As I thought about the particular hand I posted about, I thought of the line in HPFAP about doing all you can to win pots when they get big. Maybe the most aggravating part was that when I folded, it was heads up, and they checked down the river. 12 for a shot at 150 was a pretty bad fold on my part.

Thanks again,

Fitz

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit reading HPFAP. This is not an advanced game, and your not an advanced player (yet). Switch to Small Stakes Hold'em, you will be happier.

[/ QUOTE ]

None the less you should try to win big pots. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Playing Weak Tight in a Kill Game?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry about the cross post.

Thanks for advice. Adjusting the buyin makes good sense. It's a leg up structure, so I'll try that tonight.

As I thought about the particular hand I posted about, I thought of the line in HPFAP about doing all you can to win pots when they get big. Maybe the most aggravating part was that when I folded, it was heads up, and they checked down the river. 12 for a shot at 150 was a pretty bad fold on my part.

Thanks again,

Fitz

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit reading HPFAP. This is not an advanced game, and your not an advanced player (yet). Switch to Small Stakes Hold'em, you will be happier.

[/ QUOTE ] TT this is very interesting you said that about HPFAP. When do you actually read that book? I haven't read that book yet, but read every other book. I play 2/4, 3/6 online, but still think I have no need for HPFAP unless Im playing maybe 8/16 online or playing 10/20 to 20/40 Live. What do you think? I don't think I should be applying advanced skills to 6/12 or even 8/16 live b/c its just not needed there.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of books you should be reading before HPFAP, its value has been greatly decreased by books that have come out after it's glory day. For example Stoxtrader's new book is the first book to fill in the blanks for you guys; blanks that have mostly been filled in over the past few years on these forums but you have to search through the archives to find the gold nuggets at this stage (the quality of limit posts lately are pretty poor compared to when i first started).

HPFAP is a good book to read when your playing full ring games where people are beginning to think, and start to use the board to attempt to outplay you. I don't recall a subject in the book that Stox and Ed Miller doesn't cover however. Of course you should read it someday, it was an amazing book for its time, but its just not as ground breaking anymore.