Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

LP table but a bit on the tight side at times. Pretty card dead so any of my raises are getting more folds than normal.

MP is older guy who doesn't raise at all PF and only raises on the river when his hand gets there.
SB is a beginner whose hand tremble when he has a hand and bets it so he is very easy to read.

5 limpers total including MP, SB complete, Hero looks at black Aces and raises, all call. Flop comes 2d 4d 9h, SB checks, Hero bets, folded to MP who calls, rest all fold. HU to the turn. Turn is 7c, Hero Bets, MP calls, River is 5d. Hero sees MP getting out chips, Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Standard or Vbet river? He sure appeared to be drawing here and made a hand.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

I don't know, but usually when you see a fish reach for chips out of turn HU it is a ploy to get you to not bet and they will check behind. I would have bet the river. Obviously, it seems as though I would be wrong in this case, but that tell usually screams "I'm intimidating, don't bet into me" and is a standard strong means weak tell.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

I agree that this is a classic strong means weak tell but I do what Frond did which is check and call because we only have one pair and he could have definitely made his straight or flush on that board.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

If villain made his hand then it was a tell all right.. an "I made my hand and don't care if you see that I'm betting" tell. Sometimes things are exactly as they appear, especially at a 3/6 table, where most players aren't terribly sophisticated. I take reaching for chips as a sign of strength until the player demonstrates that he has that trick in his bag.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

As described I probably would have played it exactly the same, but from your description of MP I can't think of many hands a typical calling station would bet on the river that we can beat.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

No sense betting on the river. If he made his hand he calls or reraises and takes the pot and if he missed his hand he'll probably fold. He may be betting top pair/ decent kicker but if that's the case he'll probably just call your bet anyway. If you bet and have the best hand at showdown you're either gonna get zero or one bet from villian with the odds favoring zero. If you bet and villian made the hand you'll probably pay two bets (you have to call the reraise just for info on the tell). Why risk two bets to gain one or, more likely, none?

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

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I don't know, but usually when you see a fish reach for chips out of turn HU it is a ploy to get you to not bet

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I have to go with Thecount on this one and say that most players at this limit arent trying to be too tricky. The way fond describes the villian to me sounds like a pretty straight forward player. I think with the flush hitting its a check/call regardless of if hes reaching for chips or not.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

if you are confident in this read

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MP is older guy who doesn't raise at all PF and only raises on the river when his hand gets there.


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then isn't b/f best line? he's usually only raising river with a flush; even with a straight or two pair, this player will fear the flush and just call. I just feel like checking misses value from one pair hands here.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

I think this is a super easy b/f. You know you are toast if he raises, so the folding part is not hard.

Also, he could easily be getting his calling chips ready. You miss value by c/c this river IMO (could even be a c/f after he bets as some have mentioned). I think it was mentioned somehere in SSH that one of the rules of thumb is to value-bet relentlessly against LPs.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

I considerd the B/F line but I have really tough time with the B/F line anytime. It also says in SSHE to not fold for one bet in a large pot if you are not sure your beat doesn't it? Pot was good-sized, my read on him was solid, I was going to showdown. Good chance I was beat but not 100% sure in a big pot.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

There is 10BB before the river action, if you bet and he raises, u will be getting 13-1 on a river call. It could be close depending on your read, but a lot of time these nitty old live players are reliable enough to fold in an even larger pot.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

I think I would play it the same. A case can be made for betting the river, but I think you can go either way.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

With that river to that board, I check-call. With a flush-draw flop coming through and about 15 straight combinations getting there (that a player got to play PF for 1 bet, then 1 more), betting is troubling.

If MP will bet more hands than he'll call with, this is an easy check/call.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I considerd the B/F line but I have really tough time with the B/F line anytime. It also says in SSHE to not fold for one bet in a large pot if you are not sure your beat doesn't it? Pot was good-sized, my read on him was solid, I was going to showdown. Good chance I was beat but not 100% sure in a big pot.

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This read:

[ QUOTE ]
MP is older guy who doesn't raise at all PF and only raises on the river when his hand gets there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would make this a very easy b/f. This isn't a guy who would be raising the river with a lesser hand. He isn't that sophisticated. One reason is there's likely no hand he'd play the way you did that he'd fold on the river so he'd be expecting you to call that raise.

If you do c/c this, and he either doesn't bet, or bets with a lesser hand, I'd be much more inclined to bet into him on later hands in this same type of situation. Especially if he checks behind. Doubtful he'd bet a worse hand given his description.

b

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

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No sense betting on the river. If he made his hand he calls or reraises and takes the pot and if he missed his hand he'll probably fold. He may be betting top pair/ decent kicker but if that's the case he'll probably just call your bet anyway. If you bet and have the best hand at showdown you're either gonna get zero or one bet from villian with the odds favoring zero. If you bet and villian made the hand you'll probably pay two bets (you have to call the reraise just for info on the tell). Why risk two bets to gain one or, more likely, none?

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That is pretty much out of Theory of Poker and it is correct. Nice.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

bet the river. you can fold to a raise.

alot of times that premature chip fondling is a ploy to induce you to check. the times it is, you lose a bet.

Re: Live 3/6: AA in BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No sense betting on the river. If he made his hand he calls or reraises and takes the pot and if he missed his hand he'll probably fold. He may be betting top pair/ decent kicker but if that's the case he'll probably just call your bet anyway. If you bet and have the best hand at showdown you're either gonna get zero or one bet from villian with the odds favoring zero. If you bet and villian made the hand you'll probably pay two bets (you have to call the reraise just for info on the tell). Why risk two bets to gain one or, more likely, none?

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That is pretty much out of Theory of Poker and it is correct. Nice.

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To a point. If you can fold to a raise, this is an easy bet. This type will usually call with many hands that he wouldn't bet with when checked to, yet only raise a better hand. His range is much wider for a calling hand of a bet than a bet when checked to(induced bluff) or raise. In that case, this would be a bet(also right out of TOP). The factor of him going for chips makes this very player dependent.

b