flush standard situation
 

here is a pretty basic hand. what is your typical play on the river in these spots? how much do you bet, and if you do, do you fold to a raise? assume no reads and no image.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $632.35
BB: $192.00
UTG: $245.20
<font color="black">Hero (CO): $200.00</font>
BTN: $205.00

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $7.00, BB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($18) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $4.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22.00</font>, SB calls $18.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($62) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $50.00</font>, SB calls $50.00

<font color="black">River:</font> ($162) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets ____________

Re: flush standard situation
 

You have $80 in the pot already before the river so $120 behind. Difficult to make any sort of bet and then fold to a re raise against an unknown opponent (against a very solid player who i've played with a lot I could MAYBE find a fold). With so much money in the pot I also find it hard to imagine him check raising you on the river hardly at all, but obviously can never rule it out

My play would be to assume he has a AcQ/AcT/AcK/AcX/KJc (don't think he would be slow playing a set on this board) type hand so would make a bet of $80 &gt; $100. With I'd also think about running the clock down to just a few seconds, maybe faking a missed draw?

Re: flush standard situation
 

Fold preflop.

Flop is good. Turn is good. Now shove river. Unfortunately, you are probably not going to get a call unless he had a flush draw with a T. I doubt he would weak lead with top pair, but if he had that he is probably calling as well.

Re: flush standard situation
 

Shove the river for value

Re: flush standard situation
 

I'd value shove the river with AQo, so I couldn't imagine doing anything diff w/ a floosh.

Re: flush standard situation
 

def shove

Re: flush standard situation
 

Sure shove

Re: flush standard situation
 

I think we might be missing value by shoving

Re: flush standard situation
 

let timer go down and push.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I propose a new forum rule where people are banned for an hour or two when they tell hero(s) to fold preflop when it is painfully obvious that Hero is stealing, unless they provide some amazing insight as to why folding would be better.

You can argue a lot about what hands are better than others to steal with, but there are tons of even less marginal hands than this that are +EV to open with in the CO.

Re: flush standard situation
 

Bet/fold the river? As in, bet $2 and fold to a raise? Because you can't possibly bet/fold for any other amount given that the pot is bigger than remaining stacks.

Just shove. Money should have gone in already if he could have a full house here, so you're basically freerolling, and shoving looks bluffier as if you were on a missed draw.

Re: flush standard situation
 

easiest shove ever, seriously!

Re: flush standard situation
 

Less than 5% chance villain has you beat, so I don't know why you're concerned about check-raises.

I'd probably shove, but a smaller bet is probably also ok.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I propose a new forum rule where people are banned for an hour or two when they tell hero(s) to fold preflop when it is painfully obvious that Hero is stealing, unless they provide some amazing insight as to why folding would be better.

You can argue a lot about what hands are better than others to steal with, but there are tons of even less marginal hands than this that are +EV to open with in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: flush standard situation
 

I'd shove. I think they would bet a fullhouse on the river and would not have been passive so far with a better flush.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd shove. I think they would bet a fullhouse on the river and would not have been passive so far with a better flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this reasoning.

Re: flush standard situation
 

Orange - micros plz.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I propose a new forum rule where people are banned for an hour or two when they tell hero(s) to fold preflop when it is painfully obvious that Hero is stealing, unless they provide some amazing insight as to why folding would be better.

You can argue a lot about what hands are better than others to steal with, but there are tons of even less marginal hands than this that are +EV to open with in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, I thought that opening a hand as weak as J7s from the CO in an average SSNL game of today was -EV. Apparently this isn't true?

Re: flush standard situation
 

guess ive just been running horribly. bah, thanks for replies.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are comments like these helpful at all in a position-dependent, largely postflop game?

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I propose a new forum rule where people are banned for an hour or two when they tell hero(s) to fold preflop when it is painfully obvious that Hero is stealing, unless they provide some amazing insight as to why folding would be better.

You can argue a lot about what hands are better than others to steal with, but there are tons of even less marginal hands than this that are +EV to open with in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, I thought that opening a hand as weak as J7s from the CO in an average SSNL game of today was -EV. Apparently this isn't true?

[/ QUOTE ]

imo you can open any 2 in the CO/BTN profitably

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are comments like these helpful at all in a position-dependent, largely postflop game?

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly preflop deserves some mention in strategy posts because it can have an enormous impact on how the rest of the hand plays out. My comment was apparently useless, but I thought opening a weak hand like J7s from the CO was a leak and sets Hero up for unprofitable situations later in the hand.

Apparently for all the postflop wizards who can play any two profitably from the CO in SSNL that isn't true. I was at least attempting to contribute to the forum which is more than you can say about your post.

Re: flush standard situation
 

Opening this from the CO is fine. I think you can profitable open any 2 from the button (some situations excluded of course). You can probably open nearly any 2 cards from the CO as well as long as you have some post flop skills.

Re: flush standard situation
 

What I said about opening any 2 in the CO/BTN is somewhat of an exaggeration, but is true under some circumstances.

For example, if sb and bb are both weak nits when you are CO, and BTN is tight/passive, raising any 2 in the CO/BTN is probably not only OK but optimal.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I propose a new forum rule where people are banned for an hour or two when they tell hero(s) to fold preflop when it is painfully obvious that Hero is stealing, unless they provide some amazing insight as to why folding would be better.

You can argue a lot about what hands are better than others to steal with, but there are tons of even less marginal hands than this that are +EV to open with in the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, I thought that opening a hand as weak as J7s from the CO in an average SSNL game of today was -EV. Apparently this isn't true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either this isn't true, or a LOT of us ssnlers are just on very long hot streaks, because I think if you play 20/18 or so this is perfectly acceptable. I steal with stuff like J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button. This can't possibly be lower EV than that.

Re: flush standard situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are comments like these helpful at all in a position-dependent, largely postflop game?

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly preflop deserves some mention in strategy posts because it can have an enormous impact on how the rest of the hand plays out. My comment was apparently useless, but I thought opening a weak hand like J7s from the CO was a leak and sets Hero up for unprofitable situations later in the hand.

Apparently for all the postflop wizards who can play any two profitably from the CO in SSNL that isn't true. I was at least attempting to contribute to the forum which is more than you can say about your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are relying solely on your hand-strength to determine what is or is not a good hand to open with, then by definition you are never stealing.

So what you are saying is that stealing in 6-max is -EV. This isn't true unless you are in a VERY juicy game full of loose-passives (both before and after the flop).