What to do on the turn?
 

I first posted this in the midstakes section but realized it might fit B&M better. note from *TT - the mods i chatted with agreed that this thread is best suited to live in the microstakes forum because the stakes, the play, and the stack sizes are comparable. Additionally there are guys in that forum who play in games with straddles on the button so they are well qualified to provide the best real-world experience provide the origional poster is receptive to the fact that he played the hand in a non-optimal way.

I'd appreciate comments on all streets.

Live B&M 1-2NLHE. I have about 225 in front of me covered by everyone.

One thing I need to explain is what's called a Mississippi straddle. A Ms straddle is where you can straddle from any position except the blinds. People usually do it from the button so they can act last on every street.

Ok button straddles for $4. SB raises to 15 BB calls 15. Everyone else folds to me in the CO. I have KhKc. I reraise to 55. Button folds. SB AND BB called.

Flop = Ks5s2c. SB and BB check. I bet $95. SB and BB call. The turn is a non connecting spade checked to me.

What's my play and how did I do pre and on the flop?

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

Easiest push ever? $450 pot and you have $75 behind. You might be good now, and if you aren't you have 10 boat/quad outs. Folding is out of the question since the pot is laying 7:1 if you check and someone puts you in, so just shove it in now.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

For the love of God, push.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

It was checked to me so I sure wasn't folding. Not trying to be a smart arse or anything. If I push then they're getting some good odds. If I check and another spade comes it's a very easy laydown to any size bet.

Ok I had $105 on the turn when it was checked to me. I did push without really having to think about it. The SB went all in for much more and the BB called his all in.

The SB had As9s and the BB had Js8s. The river brought a 4th non pairing spade.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

Giving a player with a single spade a free card to beat you by checking behind on the turn would be criminal. Sack up and shove. 55+95+105=255, not 225, and you underbet by a fair margin on the flop. Make it $140-$150 and the hand plays itself.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

Insta push obviously

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Giving a player with a single spade a free card to beat you by checking behind on the turn would be criminal. Sack up and shove. 55+95+105=255, not 225, and you underbet by a fair margin on the flop. Make it $140-$150 and the hand plays itself.

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I'm sorry I thought I said I had about 225. I did "sack up" and push.

You're also saying that if I make 140-150 instead of the 95 that both fold? Maybe you're right. If I bet 140 then there's 309 in the pot. So he's getting a little more than 2-1.

The bottom line is I pushed and made what I thought was the right move. I still don't think both of them would have folded their FD. I don't guess I was supposed to want them to.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

the reason you lost is because you thought about not pushing in this situation

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

I assume this was at the Goldstrike?? or Horseshoe?? Folks in our area luv them some sooooted cards!!! Any 2 will do.

In a 3 way pot & knowing how some of those idiots play....I push the flop everytime & hope the board pairs because one if not both is gonna call!!!

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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Giving a player with a single spade a free card to beat you by checking behind on the turn would be criminal. Sack up and shove. 55+95+105=255, not 225, and you underbet by a fair margin on the flop. Make it $140-$150 and the hand plays itself.

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I'm sorry I thought I said I had about 225. I did "sack up" and push.

You're also saying that if I make 140-150 instead of the 95 that both fold? Maybe you're right. If I bet 140 then there's 309 in the pot. So he's getting a little more than 2-1.

The bottom line is I pushed and made what I thought was the right move. I still don't think both of them would have folded their FD. I don't guess I was supposed to want them to.

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I think you made the right move too. The bigger bet on the flop prices out the flush draws and makes the turn shove trivial. You are almost always supposed to felt with top set and 120BB effective stacks.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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the reason you lost is because you thought about not pushing in this situation

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I knew I was pushing on the turn almost no matter what came up. Especially when the spade hit. I was only seeing if anyone thought I was wrong. If many people did with good reasons I would re-evaluate. That's how I try to learn.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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I assume this was at the Goldstrike?? or Horseshoe?? Folks in our area luv them some sooooted cards!!! Any 2 will do.

In a 3 way pot & knowing how some of those idiots play....I push the flop everytime & hope the board pairs because one if not both is gonna call!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

At the GS. Were you up there at all last week at night?

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

So why was this better suited for B&M?

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I assume this was at the Goldstrike?? or Horseshoe?? Folks in our area luv them some sooooted cards!!! Any 2 will do.

In a 3 way pot & knowing how some of those idiots play....I push the flop everytime & hope the board pairs because one if not both is gonna call!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

At the GS. Were you up there at all last week at night?

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Yeah. Saturday night for a little while.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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So why was this better suited for B&M?

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Because it was at a B&M. Besides that I have no clue. That is unless people who play the places I play might have some more insight on the others that play there.

But basically good point.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

I was just wondering if you were getting a lot of hypertechnical advice in Midstakes, so you came here for the no-nonsense, good answers.

Thanks, and well played. I assume with this sort of straddle you were allowed to limp for $2, then be guaranteed the raise preflop? If so, I love it. I think you played the hand well. I might have bet more on flop, since you are getting called by most players on flush draw to a pot-sized bet I imagine. Also outside chance of AK being out there. AA would have gone all-in preflop, likely, and a lower set would have check-raised any sized bet you put out there on the flop, so increasing the bet size not a consideration for those hands.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

I get it all in on the flop here. You really did underbet that flop. Yay 50th post.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

Drew you and Broom may both be right because there wasn't anything I was floding to on the turn. Having said that I doubt either one of these two fellas were folding to any sized bet on the turn.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

FWIW, here recently I was in almost in the same situation in the same casino but I flopped the nut straight w/2 spades & had to shove (about $250ish) on the flop in a 4 way pot to get the flush draws to fold. Then they had to think it over for a while!!!

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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I get it all in on the flop here. You really did underbet that flop. Yay 50th post.

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How much should I have bet if it was K-5-2 rainbow?

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, here recently I was in almost in the same situation in the same casino but I flopped the nut straight w/2 spades & had to shove (about $250ish) on the flop in a 4 way pot to get the flush draws to fold. Then they had to think it over for a while!!!

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They know you've got a 10% chance to be bluffing and their overcards may be additional outs! They may just be ahead right now!

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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I get it all in on the flop here. You really did underbet that flop. Yay 50th post.

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How much should I have bet if it was K-5-2 rainbow?

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I see 2 options & these maybe read dependant.

1. check & re-evaluate the turn
2. make a small continuation bet, like you're scared of the flop to induce a bluff/bet from the case K.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

This is fine to post in SSNL or uNL.

With a flush draw and about a pot sized bet left, I am shoving this flop. The turn/river is not likely to make either villain a 2nd best hand so either they stack off with a draw or a worse hand or you win a nice sized pot.

If the board was an uncoordinated rainbow, I guess you could donk bet or check depending on your reads on the villains.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

I would almost never push this flop. While I'd rather run into AK or a smaller set, I don't mind getting called by a flush draw. Are you guys forgetting that a flush is like 5:1 to hit on turn? If it hits, oh well...you're still only 3:1 to resuckout. If it doesn't hit you push the turn, and they call. Playing the hand this way, your stack is $750 80% of the time and 0 20%. If pushing the flop gets them to fold, your stack is $350 100%. Therefore pushing out the flushdraws loses you about $250 in equity.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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I would almost never push this flop. While I'd rather run into AK or a smaller set, I don't mind getting called by a flush draw. Are you guys forgetting that a flush is like 5:1 to hit on turn? If it hits, oh well...you're still only 3:1 to resuckout. If it doesn't hit you push the turn, and they call. Playing the hand this way, your stack is $750 80% of the time and 0 20%. If pushing the flop gets them to fold, your stack is $350 100%. Therefore pushing out the flushdraws loses you about $250 in equity.

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I did want calls on the flop, that is until I saw the turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

I think with my stack size it makes this hand harder to figure out. I really don't think it would have made a difference had I bet say 150 on the flop. I think that not just on a read of these 2 fellas but the amount they're risking.

Had I had 1k behind their nuts might have drawn up a bit. One thing I'm a little surprised noone has commented on was after I went all in and the SB reraised all in for a few hundred more why the BB called with Js8s.

I guess it surprised me because he instacalled. I can't believe I just said instacalled.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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I would almost never push this flop. While I'd rather run into AK or a smaller set, I don't mind getting called by a flush draw. Are you guys forgetting that a flush is like 5:1 to hit on turn? If it hits, oh well...you're still only 3:1 to resuckout. If it doesn't hit you push the turn, and they call. Playing the hand this way, your stack is $750 80% of the time and 0 20%. If pushing the flop gets them to fold, your stack is $350 100%. Therefore pushing out the flushdraws loses you about $250 in equity.

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I did want calls on the flop, that is until I saw the turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] .

I think with my stack size it makes this hand harder to figure out. I really don't think it would have made a difference had I bet say 150 on the flop. I think that not just on a read of these 2 fellas but the amount they're risking.

Had I had 1k behind their nuts might have drawn up a bit. One thing I'm a little surprised noone has commented on was after I went all in and the SB reraised all in for a few hundred more why the BB called with Js8s.

I guess it surprised me because he instacalled. I can't believe I just said instacalled.

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The one with J8s should have known he was beat. With 2 AI in front of me, I'd muck this. Of course, I'd probably not play J8 OOP for a raise either.

But, this just strengthens what I said earlier about any 2 suited cards would do.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

I think I might check the turn. Without doing the math, a shove is only EV+ if the flush is out less than 60% the time unless they both call the shove. Of course, if they both call the turn shove one of them has a flush better than %75. With two flop calls, I think one of them has the flush a lot and are "checking to the raiser". I know a turn shove is the obvious play, but I don't know if its the correct play.

Flame on.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

So there is $170 in the pot on the flop and you have $170. Given the preflop action and your stack size, shoving is the optimal play. For typical B&M live 1-2, you are getting called by hands you crush anyway AK, KQ, K5s, etc.

I don't think you would've won the hand though. In the games I play, NFD usually calls a pot bet there with a non paired board.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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I assume this was at the Goldstrike?? or Horseshoe?? Folks in our area luv them some sooooted cards!!! Any 2 will do.

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LOL, I took some donk buddies of mine out to CAZ once, late at night a few of us occupied most the seats at a limit table. I get aces and three-bet it, two spades come on the flop, including the ace, making me a set. I cap this and the turn, with one friend sticking around. A spade comes on the river, he bets out, I call, sick to my stomach, and he was honestly confused as to why I didn't raise just like every previous round as he tabled his K-4 of spades. K-4 of effing spades. Sooted cards are pretty to some, no doubt. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

Here's another hand from the other night.


After a straddle I raise from late MP to 18 with 79os and only the SB and BB calling the straddle. The button calls and everyone else folds. So it's heads up since I'm making this so confusing.

I have about $500 and he has me covered.

The flop was 7-3-Q. I bet 25 into a $48 pot, hoping to end it right there. He thinks for about 3 seconds and calls. The turn is another 7. I bet $65 and he calls. No FD's out there. The river is and ace.

Now this guy is kind of tricky and pretty good. I was pretty sure I was ahead but I wasn't sure enough to risk my whole stack. I didn't want to check to him because if he had a strong hand I didn't want him betting so much that I felt I had to call but not enough where I was supposed to fold.

After I bet the flop I thought he had a Q like maybe KQ or even AQ. So I was ready to give up. I loved the turn obviously and wanted to suck him in for all I could. But something about the way he called the turn scared me pretty bad.

How bad did I play it?

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

Nick,

There 's nothing to suggest he has QQ. 33 is the only reasonable hand that beats you (other than the improbable Q7 and Q3).

I'd check raise the turn and shove the river. That A doesn't make villain a better hand. If he is trapping with 33 then you are losing a lot of your stack here regardless of how you play.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's another hand from the other night.


After a straddle I raise from late MP to 18 with 79os and only the SB and BB calling the straddle. The button calls and everyone else folds. So it's heads up since I'm making this so confusing.

I have about $500 and he has me covered.

The flop was 7-3-Q. I bet 25 into a $48 pot, hoping to end it right there. He thinks for about 3 seconds and calls. The turn is another 7. I bet $65 and he calls. No FD's out there. The river is and ace.

Now this guy is kind of tricky and pretty good. I was pretty sure I was ahead but I wasn't sure enough to risk my whole stack. I didn't want to check to him because if he had a strong hand I didn't want him betting so much that I felt I had to call but not enough where I was supposed to fold.

After I bet the flop I thought he had a Q like maybe KQ or even AQ. So I was ready to give up. I loved the turn obviously and wanted to suck him in for all I could. But something about the way he called the turn scared me pretty bad.

How bad did I play it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did you bet on the river?? Why wouldn't he raise AQ on the button in a HU pot? Wouldn't he raise you on the flop with a Q + big kicker?

With his betting pattern, he has not indicated he has a big hand either. He seems to be in call down mode. I suspect he's got a mid PP & is wondering if you have a Q. Once again your bets aren't pot sized, so he may be on to that fact as weakness.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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Ok button straddles for $4. SB raises to 15 BB calls 15.

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I just realized that a local room I play at has been doing this wrong. Or is it just different? They allow this straddle, but then betting proceeds from UTG, around back to the blind (the button is skipped), and then finally the button (after the BB). It looks like the blinds really get screwed the way it's supposed to be, since now they have to act first on every street.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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It was checked to me so I sure wasn't folding. Not trying to be a smart arse or anything. If I push then they're getting some good odds. If I check and another spade comes it's a very easy laydown to any size bet.


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I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone is drawing with one spade, you've got 80% equity or something. As far as I understand the whole math of it, when you you have >50% equity, you should always bet, even if your opponent is priced in to call. Having to call a bet is better than folding for your opponent, but both options are worse than getting a free card. You shouldn't provide that option to him.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok button straddles for $4. SB raises to 15 BB calls 15.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just realized that a local room I play at has been doing this wrong. Or is it just different? They allow this straddle, but then betting proceeds from UTG, around back to the blind (the button is skipped), and then finally the button (after the BB). It looks like the blinds really get screwed the way it's supposed to be, since now they have to act first on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

A straddle is plyed from UTG. This is a Mississippi straddle that can be played from anywhere but the blinds.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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It was checked to me so I sure wasn't folding. Not trying to be a smart arse or anything. If I push then they're getting some good odds. If I check and another spade comes it's a very easy laydown to any size bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone is drawing with one spade, you've got 80% equity or something. As far as I understand the whole math of it, when you you have >50% equity, you should always bet, even if your opponent is priced in to call. Having to call a bet is better than folding for your opponent, but both options are worse than getting a free card. You shouldn't provide that option to him.

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Not really sure if you and I are disagreeing or not. What I was saying that if I would have checked (which I didn't) and a 4th spade would have come on the river against two players it would have been an easy fold to any kind of bet.

If I wanted to be results oriented then I could have said I should have checked the turn because the river brought the 4th spade. But I'm not going to be that way.

I'd say my biggest mistake was not having more money on the table. Then I could have bet more on the turn and then they might have not been willing to call. Then again the SB was gettng a lil more than 4-1 preflop. Ok so up to 70-75 preflop?

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Ok button straddles for $4. SB raises to 15 BB calls 15.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just realized that a local room I play at has been doing this wrong. Or is it just different? They allow this straddle, but then betting proceeds from UTG, around back to the blind (the button is skipped), and then finally the button (after the BB). It looks like the blinds really get screwed the way it's supposed to be, since now they have to act first on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

A straddle is plyed from UTG. This is a Mississippi straddle that can be played from anywhere but the blinds.

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I know... by "this straddle" I meant this "Mississipi straddle".

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

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It was checked to me so I sure wasn't folding. Not trying to be a smart arse or anything. If I push then they're getting some good odds. If I check and another spade comes it's a very easy laydown to any size bet.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I agree with this reasoning. If someone is drawing with one spade, you've got 80% equity or something. As far as I understand the whole math of it, when you you have >50% equity, you should always bet, even if your opponent is priced in to call. Having to call a bet is better than folding for your opponent, but both options are worse than getting a free card. You shouldn't provide that option to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really sure if you and I are disagreeing or not. What I was saying that if I would have checked (which I didn't) and a 4th spade would have come on the river against two players it would have been an easy fold to any kind of bet.

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Infinite odds > good odds. You have to bet even if your opponent is still right to call.

And, even if a spade does come, you can't fold to "any bet", because he might not have been on a flush draw.

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I assume this was at the Goldstrike?? or Horseshoe?? Folks in our area luv them some sooooted cards!!! Any 2 will do.

In a 3 way pot & knowing how some of those idiots play....I push the flop everytime & hope the board pairs because one if not both is gonna call!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean "folks anywhere"...

Re: What to do on the turn?
 

In the second hand villan had QQ.