ATs Line Check
 

I've been running into problems hitting top pair with AT. I think I played this hand correctly, but please let me know if I didn't.

Table: 4/8 Live FR. Table had been pretty loose/passive.
Villain (button): Young guy who just sat down.
Me: AT of diamonds in the big blind.

Preflop:
5 callers, I raise, all call.

Flop (11 sb): A Q rag, 2 hearts.
I bet. Only the villain calls.

Turn (6.5 bb): rag
I bet, villain calls.

River (8.5 bb): A, not a heart
I bet, villain raises, I call.

By the way, thanks everybody for your advice on all the hands I post. You have all been a great help.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

Looks good to me absent any read of the villian.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

i think it looks fine

Re: ATs Line Check
 

I think your preflop raise from BB is good with your high suited cards. I would check with ATo, and with A9s.

I think you should bet flop, turn, and river. In my internet games I'd sometimes reraise this river depending on the villain. Against an unknown live player calling seems okay.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

I raise the river for value.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

3bet. He thinks his queen is good since the board paired. The rest is goot.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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I would check with ATo, and with A9s.

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with 5 limpers(unless they are absolutely horrible) i would probably raise A5s+.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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3bet. He thinks his queen is good since the board paired. The rest is goot.

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I'd probably 3bet but I really don't give him a Queen? My guess is he has a raggy ace and thinks his trips are good, which they are not.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

The thing is, most players in this game are so passive I have trouble putting him on the raggy ace. Most players are afraid of getting out-kicked, and it is very rare to see a raise on the river. I might expect that kind of play from a player waiting for a seat at a higher table, but I didn't know that about this player.

I guess the reason I'm dwelling on this hand is I still can't figure out what this guy was thinking at any point.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

3 bet river, there is a chance he puts you on the busted flush draw, so thinks his PP is good.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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3 bet river, there is a chance he puts you on the busted flush draw, so thinks his PP is good.

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This seems a little too specific to put the villain on. Its one possibility, but I don't think its that likely, at least compared to another A or a Q. Then again, I don't like a 3-bet here, and other better players seem to, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

First off, good raise PF in the BB with this hand. I wouldn't fault you for just calling here on the river but I am leaning a bit more towards a 3 bet. I think that you are ahead here. Don't recall what the rag cards were? That might help a little bit more if you recalled those.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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3bet. He thinks his queen is good since the board paired. The rest is goot.

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I'd probably 3bet but I really don't give him a Queen?

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this is true from a purely mathematical standpoint if nothing else.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

id 3bet only because villains will raise river with A9 and lower

Re: ATs Line Check
 

I think 3bet is best with a new player who just sat down and is looking to get involved in some pots. Have to put him on a weak A.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

Absent any reads I 3-town the river. His likely holdings are a queen, a weak ace, a busted heart draw, a full house of some sort, and a bigger ace in approximately that order. You're way ahead of his 3bet calling range here. Other than that I like it.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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Absent any reads I 3-town the river. His likely holdings are a queen, a weak ace, a busted heart draw, a full house of some sort, and a bigger ace in approximately that order. You're way ahead of his 3bet calling range here. Other than that I like it.

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The issue isn't just if he calls the 3-bet, thats basically a given (except for the bluffs, but those aren't that likely). You also have to consider how often you will get raised. If he's raising you with a better hand often enough here, you're losing money with the bet.

I can see the Q, the weak A, or the big A/small A full house, the rest isn't that likely. Even the majority of crappy players won't bluff here at a 4/8 game. I suppose you are ahead often enough that the 3-bet is right. But I think its close.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

OK, I see the point that a lot of you are making that I should 3-bet.

Having analyzed what the player MAY have been thinking, I wonder if anybody has any ideas what he WAS thinking, given his cards. He had AK, so the third Ace really couldn't helped him unless he was alread ahead. Any idea what was going through his mind calling TPTK twice and then raising? Was it some elaborate fancy play? Is he just playing randomly? Am I overthinking this?

It's not that I mind people calling me down. It's just I can usually figure out why people make their bad plays (afraid of getting out-kicked, thought an overpair was the nuts, etc.) but the river raise doesn't make any sense for someone playing so passively up to the river.

To Frond, I don't remember the rags any more but they were both under 7.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

Three things he may be thinking are:
1. Does not want to get sucked out on by a flush draw/gutshot.(Not likely)
2. Puts you on AA with your preflop raise and second A makes him realize what a wuss he really is.(Not very likely)
3. With only the two of you left on the turn does not raise for fear of losing you and your extra bet on the river.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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3 bet river, there is a chance he puts you on the busted flush draw, so thinks his PP is good.

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Yeah because bluffing with the best hand is a standard play.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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Having analyzed what the player MAY have been thinking, I wonder if anybody has any ideas what he WAS thinking, given his cards. He had AK, so the third Ace really couldn't helped him unless he was alread ahead. Any idea what was going through his mind calling TPTK twice and then raising? Was it some elaborate fancy play? Is he just playing randomly? Am I overthinking this?

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Because trips is a better hand than one pair. Bad players (and if he doesn't 3bet AK here he's bad) don't necessarily understand relative hand strength.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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Having analyzed what the player MAY have been thinking, I wonder if anybody has any ideas what he WAS thinking, given his cards. He had AK, so the third Ace really couldn't helped him unless he was alread ahead. Any idea what was going through his mind calling TPTK twice and then raising? Was it some elaborate fancy play? Is he just playing randomly? Am I overthinking this?

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Because trips is a better hand than one pair. Bad players (and if he doesn't 3bet AK here he's bad) don't necessarily understand relative hand strength.

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He could also be a thinking player, that just doesn't know what to do with the results he has. He easily could have put you on a high pocker pair/A and figured if he raised you before the river you'd just fold your your beaten pocket pairs or stop betting your weaker A. People like to slowplay for no other reason than to slowplay.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

The player did not even raise pf with his AK. If the second ace didn't hit, you probably would not have been raised on the river. Passive players find reasons not to bet or raise until they are completely convinced that they have a winner.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

I forgot the best one of all

4. Enjoys winning the minimum.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

My guess is villian is letting hero do the work while waiting to see if the flush comes. Also, lots of players limp with AK hoping to get this type of trapping opportunity. Villian is probably also thinking that if he raises on the turn he'll push hero off a weaker hand and lose bets, get called and have hero hit a possible flush and lose bets, or just have hero check/call and lose bets. Villian limped, hoping for a trap opportunity, and he got it. By the way, I would have value bet on the river too and grudgingly paid off villian.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

Most low-limit B&M players don't bluff. And they would not raise a second A river with a Q.

Depending on his body language, I would call or 3-town this. I lean to the 3-town. Since he didn't raise the button, I believe he's pimping a small A. If it was A2 we should have heard from him on the turn.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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Having analyzed what the player MAY have been thinking, I wonder if anybody has any ideas what he WAS thinking, given his cards. He had AK, so the third Ace really couldn't helped him unless he was alread ahead. Any idea what was going through his mind calling TPTK twice and then raising? Was it some elaborate fancy play? Is he just playing randomly? Am I overthinking this?

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Because trips is a better hand than one pair. Bad players (and if he doesn't 3bet AK here he's bad) don't necessarily understand relative hand strength.

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He could also be a thinking player, that just doesn't know what to do with the results he has. He easily could have put you on a high pocker pair/A and figured if he raised you before the river you'd just fold your your beaten pocket pairs or stop betting your weaker A. People like to slowplay for no other reason than to slowplay.

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I really really doubt this guy's that smart.


I think most of you are way too used to the internet games. Most live 4-8 players barely understand what a small blind is.


I'm not surprised he had AK. I figured him for a weak Ace, but seeing stupid stuff like this isn't at all surprising. I'm sure he would have told you his entire thought process if you just asked; that's one of the cool things about live play. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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I think most of you are way too used to the internet games. Most live 4-8 players barely understand what a small blind is.


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I dont know were your playing but I want in.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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I think most of you are way too used to the internet games. Most live 4-8 players barely understand what a small blind is.


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I dont know were your playing but I want in.

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You could try my 4/8 game in Winnipeg.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

I know what you mean about AT hands, it can be tricky at times when you hit your Ace and you are playing with several passive players who never raise PF with AQ, AK or even QQ. You bet and bet thinking that your Ace is good and they flip over AK, AQ or AJ and have you dominated. They just opt to call you down because you raised PF. I see it all the time at 3/6 and 4/8. All you can do is bet it until you hit some aggression than you can evaluate the hand. It almost makes you want to pair your Ten instead at times eh? I'm learning that some of these older guys you have to take special note of if they are calling you all the way down at times. Im not saying to get passive just take notes of what hands they are showing down and constantly missing bets with and proceed accordingly.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

As a weak-tightie with TAG tendencies I can tell you exactly what this guy was thinking LOL...
He was probably worried about a flush, and maybe a wheel, although since you raised PF he probably didn't have you playing rags. HU he had to figure he was ahead, and since you were betting for him he decided to just ride along until he was clear of the flush before raising you. Is that really such a bad play by the villain here? (I agree that villain needed to raise PF)

Re: ATs Line Check
 

but how is this a line check?

Re: ATs Line Check
 

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but how is this a line check?

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I've had 3 recent AT hands (within 1 week) where I got called down by Ace with a bigger kicker or an overpair (when I hit my Ten for TPTK.) I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overvaluing my kicker.

Re: ATs Line Check
 

Okay, forgive me for stating the obvious, but remember that PF ATs is +.35 EV, and AT is +.07. But ATs loses that extra value when you miss your flush, so when you also miss your straight or fail to pair the T you're susceptible to getting outkicked.
I like to think of it by assigning letter grades to my A kickers: AK = A, AQ = B, AJ = C, AT = D. A9 and A8 you're on your own. A7 and A6 = F. A5-A2 = wheel fodder.