LC: Cure for bubbling
 

What typically is the cause of a player getting too many 4ths?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

losing hands on the bubble.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

just concentrate on ICM stuff...use a bubble trainer like the one on prego poker

also, what kind of stack are you usually entering the bubble with

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

The fear of winning?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

playing sngs?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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just concentrate on ICM stuff...use a bubble trainer like the one on prego poker

also, what kind of stack are you usually entering the bubble with

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Right. BT is essential.

Usually getting down to 4 with 2500-3500 chips.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

I've found that often times bubbling isn't because you are playing incorrect poker on the bubble but that you are playing incorrect pushfold poker prior to the bubble. Because of this you may be entering the bubble very shortstacked giving players the correct odds to call your shoves etc.

Also, try not to shove when you have a lot of players to go through (in early pos.) try and keep them to late pos unless you have a really good hand or are crazy shortstacked.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

Trying to "pwn" idiots (which will be 95% of your opponents.. more if you play low stakes).

Ryan

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

sound advice allabouttheu, thanks


so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

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Yeah. Unless there's someone super short with just over 1BB. Then you can push around almost anyone for 4 or 5 orbits before someone spite calls you.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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sound advice allabouttheu, thanks


so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

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I have tried to do this SO much, but randoms just don't fold when you push every hand, unless there is a really smallstack around - and even then they can't fold AQ/AJ.

I basically have cut down a ton on my bubble pwning vs randoms unless its a really obvious spot for them to fold, like a really shortstack, or i have a good image.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

Exactly. Bigstack bullying is great, the only problem is that a lot of players are to dumb to realize they should fold, but this is a good thing. I've played a decent amount w/ you and know you play a lot of tables at once. Try to figure out who is just trying to get itm, and who is trying to win.

Those that just want to get itm are the guys you want to bully, while the people playing for 1st may call your shove w/ a marginal hand but are still way ahead of you because they are willing to bubble to double up.

goodluck.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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just concentrate on ICM stuff...use a bubble trainer like the one on prego poker

also, what kind of stack are you usually entering the bubble with

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Right. BT is essential.

Usually getting down to 4 with 2500-3500 chips.

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Having 2500 chips when it's down to 4 would be a luxury to me.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

Not having good reads for calling/pushing ranges on the bubble, if you misread on the bubble the EV can drastically change.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

Would we go so far as to not make ATC SB pushes with 10bb and less if we know the BB is one of the "double or bubble" cats?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Would we go so far as to not make ATC SB pushes with 10bb and less if we know the BB is one of the "double or bubble" cats?

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It isn't ATC if he's calling stupid wide. Figure out the ranges that those goons call with and push appropriately.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

TwistedEcho have you cut down your big stack bubble bullying even in the 60's?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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TwistedEcho have you cut down your big stack bubble bullying even in the 60's?

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against some lineups, yes

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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sound advice allabouttheu, thanks


so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

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I have tried to do this SO much, but randoms just don't fold when you push every hand, unless there is a really smallstack around - and even then they can't fold AQ/AJ.

I basically have cut down a ton on my bubble pwning vs randoms unless its a really obvious spot for them to fold, like a really shortstack, or i have a good image.

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Bullying works fine in the 16s against like everyone, unless I'm just getting great games over a huge sample [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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sound advice allabouttheu, thanks


so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

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I have tried to do this SO much, but randoms just don't fold when you push every hand, unless there is a really smallstack around - and even then they can't fold AQ/AJ.

I basically have cut down a ton on my bubble pwning vs randoms unless its a really obvious spot for them to fold, like a really shortstack, or i have a good image.

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Bullying works fine in the 16s against like everyone, unless I'm just getting great games over a huge sample [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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i mean like shoving every hand for the enitre bubble etc, people always end up calling me with KT or A2 or even like J8 because im pushing every hand. I just cut down on pushing the really marginal spots, or the total trash hands from CO 4 handed at 200/400 when they all have 2500 and i have the lead and a bad image.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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What typically is the cause of a player getting too many 4ths?

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just use your ICM program. Make sure you study every hand. If you lose, but it says you push/folded correctly then try not to worry about it.

Mentally you're probably screwed up from an excess of 4ths and questioning your icm play. You're might be pushing Ax from an EP when you should be folding, and folding 86 type hands from sb when you should be shoving.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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just concentrate on ICM stuff...use a bubble trainer like the one on prego poker

also, what kind of stack are you usually entering the bubble with

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Right. BT is essential.

Usually getting down to 4 with 2500-3500 chips.

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BT is good for getting a good idea about icm play, but SNGW (prolly SNGPT too) are necessary so you can play with ranges, stack sizes, etc and analyze specific situations from your actual games. This analysis is more helpful than just quizing. This identifies problems in YOUR game...

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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sound advice allabouttheu, thanks


so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

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I have tried to do this SO much, but randoms just don't fold when you push every hand, unless there is a really smallstack around - and even then they can't fold AQ/AJ.

I basically have cut down a ton on my bubble pwning vs randoms unless its a really obvious spot for them to fold, like a really shortstack, or i have a good image.

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If someone is bullying me, I would probably be calling w/ AQ, AJ unless there was a big shorty.

Calling on the bubble seems to be harder than shoving on the bubble. Villain needs to be pretty tight for me to not call w/ AQ, AJ on bubble (obv blinds need to be high relative to stacks)

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

Maybe when we bully we only remember the times that we got called by KJo and lose. I always remember how I get sucked out on and not how I suck out on others. I'm always thinking am I leaking when I bully the raiser in the bubble and get called.

Do you push this? Let's say blinds are 200/400 with 4 people and the shortest stack has 400 chips left. You are in the sb with 3000 chips and the bb has 6000. The other guy has 4100. Do you risk pushing into bb? I'm thinking you should push this because bb won't call you with crap like KJo or would he? #2 Would you push it if you had 4000 chips?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Would we go so far as to not make ATC SB pushes with 10bb and less if we know the BB is one of the "double or bubble" cats?

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It isn't ATC if he's calling stupid wide. Figure out the ranges that those goons call with and push appropriately.

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I always tried to get every hand correct in my ICM tool, and then I started doing this. Once you establish that they are calling super wide, of course then you adjust you range approiately. God I love 2p2! all of you guys help me so much!

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

For low buy ins the answer is simple.

You bubble more than you should because often times folding is a VERY +EV play if your opponents are prone to calling all ins way too much.

Example: on the bubble and everyone has 2000 chips with blinds of 100/200 and you have a marginally plus ev hand on the button. You put the BB on a wide calling range and the you know the SB will push any two into the BB. Lets say that if you push here it's marginally +EV, BUT it's MORE +EV to fold and have the bubble burst a lot of the time.

Think about it, how can you beat sngs when people call too much? You'll see these calls way more at the $6 tables than the $215's but nobody would claim that the latter was easier. $EV can be gained in many ways don't think that pushing or calling decisions that are +$EV are necessarily the optimal play at certain tables.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

Against people that you know will bully you if you raise when there is a short stack would limping work against that strategy.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Against people that you know will bully you if you raise when there is a short stack would limping work against that strategy.

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Unlikely if I understand what you are asking. If you were to make a standard raise and know its extremely likely the big stack will shove over with ATC because of another short stack then limping would probably also get shoved over.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Against people that you know will bully you if you raise when there is a short stack would limping work against that strategy.

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No. They'll bully you when you limp too.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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sound advice allabouttheu, thanks


so its a bad idea to big stack bully if you're the only one that knows what big stack bullying is? makes since.

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I have tried to do this SO much, but randoms just don't fold when you push every hand, unless there is a really smallstack around - and even then they can't fold AQ/AJ.

I basically have cut down a ton on my bubble pwning vs randoms unless its a really obvious spot for them to fold, like a really shortstack, or i have a good image.

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If someone is bullying me, I would probably be calling w/ AQ, AJ unless there was a big shorty.

Calling on the bubble seems to be harder than shoving on the bubble. Villain needs to be pretty tight for me to not call w/ AQ, AJ on bubble (obv blinds need to be high relative to stacks)

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yeah i mean spots where the good players are folding AQ/AJ, they aren't. I mean if they are calling a reasonable range of broadway/pairs then thats cool and i just pwn away, its when they start calling with like Q8s, K3 etc that you have to slow down

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Do you push this? Let's say blinds are 200/400 with 4 people and the shortest stack has 400 chips left. You are in the sb with 3000 chips and the bb has 6000. The other guy has 4100. Do you risk pushing into bb? I'm thinking you should push this because bb won't call you with crap like KJo or would he? #2 Would you push it if you had 4000 chips?

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I don't think I would be pushing anything here. Short stack has 1 BB. Letting him bust is the most +EV.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Do you push this? Let's say blinds are 200/400 with 4 people and the shortest stack has 400 chips left. You are in the sb with 3000 chips and the bb has 6000. The other guy has 4100. Do you risk pushing into bb? I'm thinking you should push this because bb won't call you with crap like KJo or would he? #2 Would you push it if you had 4000 chips?

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I don't think I would be pushing anything here. Short stack has 1 BB. Letting him bust is the most +EV.

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What about same chip sizes but different positions. Let's say the 6000 stack is sb and 4100 stack is bb. You have 3000 on the co and the lowest stack is 400 on the button. You have AKo and the blinds are 200/400. Do you push or fold? Do you fold here even with 10's?

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Against people that you know will bully you if you raise when there is a short stack would limping work against that strategy.

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If you are playing against a good player who will shove over a standard raise, then you need to openshove or fold, even if it is more than 10bb. Their bullying only works if you let them have FE.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Against people that you know will bully you if you raise when there is a short stack would limping work against that strategy.

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If you are playing against a good player who will shove over a standard raise, then you need to openshove or fold, even if it is more than 10bb. Their bullying only works if you let them have FE.

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LOL how come I didn't think of that. It makes alot of sense. Great wise noodleman =0.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

stupid people = bubbles

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t200/t400
(Ante: t25)
4 players
Converter

edit: stack sizes help
Seat 3: hero (5595 in chips)
Seat 4: SB (2528 in chips)
Seat 5: BB (2629 in chips)
Seat 7: CO (2748 in chips)

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in t5570</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB calls all-in t2303</font>, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t3067 returned to Hero.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t3403, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t5506)


Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t3403, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t5506)


River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t3403, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t5506)


Results:
Final pot: t3403
SB showed Qh Tc

chat from the SB afterwards:

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"you're bluffing too much. A A every hand??"

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Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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Do you push this? Let's say blinds are 200/400 with 4 people and the shortest stack has 400 chips left. You are in the sb with 3000 chips and the bb has 6000. The other guy has 4100. Do you risk pushing into bb? I'm thinking you should push this because bb won't call you with crap like KJo or would he? #2 Would you push it if you had 4000 chips?

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I don't think I would be pushing anything here. Short stack has 1 BB. Letting him bust is the most +EV.

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What about same chip sizes but different positions. Let's say the 6000 stack is sb and 4100 stack is bb. You have 3000 on the co and the lowest stack is 400 on the button. You have AKo and the blinds are 200/400. Do you push or fold? Do you fold here even with 10's?

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I would limp and hope that big stacks wont push. I would only do this if they aren't bullying. If they are, fold.

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

The key as someone else mentioned is looking for the guy who just wants to get itm. You will know him by a few things. First if he does push and he has a big hand ...thats a good start. Second he folds his SB alot when no one else has entered the pot. Third he is not pushing on the button really at all

If you observe all three of these behaviors in a player at least at low stakes then you can prob pick on him quite abit

Re: LC: Cure for bubbling
 

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For low buy ins the answer is simple.

You bubble more than you should because often times folding is a VERY +EV play if your opponents are prone to calling all ins way too much.

Example: on the bubble and everyone has 2000 chips with blinds of 100/200 and you have a marginally plus ev hand on the button. You put the BB on a wide calling range and the you know the SB will push any two into the BB. Lets say that if you push here it's marginally +EV, BUT it's MORE +EV to fold and have the bubble burst a lot of the time.

Think about it, how can you beat sngs when people call too much? You'll see these calls way more at the $6 tables than the $215's but nobody would claim that the latter was easier. $EV can be gained in many ways don't think that pushing or calling decisions that are +$EV are necessarily the optimal play at certain tables.

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This is great advice!